The Tradition I would like to see

[Garland Bayley]

Tradition is capitalized, because it is the Champions Tour major tournament held in Oregon. One interesting thing about The Tradition is that it has always been held on modern courses, first Jack Nicklaus, then Cupp and Fought. This year it is moving to Eastern Oregon to the Bend area to be played at Crosswater at Sunriver.

I have been an advocate of major championships all being tournaments that change venue every year. Moving The Tradition to the Bend area gives an opportunity to create a rotation of modern courses in the area for the The Tradition to be held on. I would suggest from Crosswater it move to Pronghorn/Nicklaus followed by Pronghorn/Fazio, The Tribute, and Wicked Pony.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Garland,
  How can you have Wicked Pony on your list and the course isn't even done? How can you evaluate?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Jeff Doerr]

Garland,
  How can you have Wicked Pony on your list and the course isn't even done? How can you evaluate?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

I'm guessing that Garland is looking at Tom's track record and is pretty confident he won't drop the ball on this one!  He also did put it last on the list.

I do like the idea of a Central Oregon rota for the event.

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony,

It is on the list, because the tournament would not reach there until 2011, and because part of the idea is to move the tournament from architect to architect. Now if only we can get Pete Dye to put in a course in the area and perhaps Kelly Blake Moran and Jim Engh we could have an 8 course rota.  

Furthermore, I am not the least interested in "defending par".

[Anthony_Nysse]

Garland,
  Your comments echo some of the critism that this site receives. So many just assume that because it's a Doak design that it will be outstanding and worthy of any award or tournament.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Joe Hancock]

Garland,
  Your comments echo some of the critism that this site receives. So many just assume that because it's a Doak design that it will be outstanding and worthy of any award or tournament.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Tony,

God has blessed many with the gift of logic....I think Garland has been so blessed......

Joe

[JESII]

Garland,


What is the upside of playing the tournament at different courses all in the same area?

[Garland Bayley]

Jeez Sully,

I thought the upside was obvious. That is we Oregonians get to see it and you don't.  

Actually, it is one of those majors that haven't moved around much. I imagine Peter Jacobsen is still producing it in concert with that Oregon company Jeld-wen. So I suspect it might be in Oregon for a while. I figured the easiest way to get it to different venues would be to keep it in the same area.

I have to wonder if Jen-Weld has eyes on moving it to Running Y near their headquarters.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
  Your comments echo some of the critism that this site receives. ...

Tony,

I have no idea what that means.

[Craig Sweet]

Common sense would dictate the "Tradition" be played on a course that was built pre-Viet Nam war era, and the old coggers would use persimmon headed woods and lousy old golf balls.....oh, and wear lots of plaid 'sans-a-belt slacks and Munsingwear shirts with stiff collars...

[Anthony_Nysse]

Garland,
  Your comment about putting Wicky Pony on your list. You're just assuming that it will be a solid enough course because of who's designing it. I'm not knocking on Mr. Doak, but too many just assume greatness out of him, C&C and several other of the favorites here....Their courses are not always home runs....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony,

I would agree with your premise that you can't tell what it will be until its built.  But with the usual boring courses they play on tour, wouldn't you much rather see alternative courses, which in all likely-hood will be worthwhile??

IMO even if on the off-hand the courses they build aren't home runs, they are likely still way better than the average tour course.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

I ignored your making that comment last week on another thread, but if you want to keep doing it, you're going to have to back it up.

Which of my last 8-10 courses wasn't good enough for you?  And which of Bill Coore's?  I'm dying to know.  (I'm limiting it to the last 8-10 courses because before that we didn't always have the resources or the talent to do our best, and because I am still getting better.)

[Garland Bayley]

Tony,

If it makes you feel any better, I have never seen any of the courses, so I have no basis to recommend a Fazio, or a Nicklaus, either. I just went to oregongolf.com and saw what was available in the area beside knowing about what was coming from reading this website. My biggest fault I suppose would be that I left Robert Trent Jones II off the list. His course at Sunriver is older and I suspected it might need some work. Besides, I think he will do just fine with Chambers Bay coming online in the PNW this year. I would suspect a US Senior Open to go there fairly soon, and a US Senior Open trumps a Tradition IMHO.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,
 The comments weren't directed exactly to you. It's a general statement of many views on this site. I’m not saying that your stuff of Mr. Coore stuff is bad, I just think that too many jump on the band wagon just because who designed it. If it makes you feel better, I'm not a fan of Lost Dunes. I think that the greens are WAY over the top-too much contour for the speeds and conditions presented. Also, routing is as broken up as can be, but that's not your fault that the highway is there. I think that Heathland at The Legends or Quail Crossing aren’t anything to write home about, though it doesn't fit into you last 8-10, but shouldn't an architect be judged on all there courses, not just there best 5? I think that Long Cove is a solid course, but it's not bullet proof to criticism. In fact, I think that Mr. Dyes courses in the last 5-10 years have not be anywhere near the caliber of the courses that made his name and I think that people will always remember how his most recent courses has lacked the character that his courses of the 80’s and early 90’s did. So many are just long with waste area all over. Look at The Dye course @ Barefoot Resort, Dye course @ PGA Village, Hampton Hall, Kampen Course at Purdue, TPC @ Virginia and even TPC of Louisania to name a few.
  As for C&C’s stuff, I think that Hidden Creek is a nice member’s course with some architecture interesting to New Jersey, but should it have ever been a Top 100 course? I think that course got its praise because of timing-being a minimalist course on the heals of Friar’s Head. I think that the same goes for Chechessee Creek-It’s a fantastic experience and ALWAYS a treat to play there, but it shouldn’t have garnered all its rankings and awards. It’s not even a Top 5 course in the Lowcountry. Without a doubt, some of the minimalist courses will stand the test of time (I have not seen Pac Dunes or Ballyneal and by looking at pictures, I think they will) but I really think that many will be faded out in the next 10-15 years and we will look back and scratch our heads.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony,

Time will tell, but can you honestly tell me you would rather see them play some boring course over one like Lost Dunes?  I'm just not seeing that....

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

No course is "bullet proof to criticism" if Long Cove isn't good enough for you.  But, I am glad to hear that you are interested in evaluating one's total body of work.

I just hope you will keep the same standard for every architect.  Lots of big-name architects are getting paid big dollars every time out, even though some of their projects get very little personal attention and never make anyone's radar screen.  We don't talk about all the big-budget projects which have gone bust despite their big-name designers, because nobody here cares about them if they're no good, but it happens WAY too often.

I got paid about $125,000 each for The Legends and for Quail Crossing, too, and I think they got more than their money's worth.  (I am pretty sure The Legends has made money with 55,000 rounds every year.)  As for Lost Dunes, I always felt it was my most underrated course, but with the latest GOLF DIGEST ranking, I guess it's not anymore.  Except by you.    I haven't played Hidden Creek or Chechessee so I can't say anything about your tastes there.

[Tom Roewer]

Tom:  Quail Crossing was a steal @ $125,000 to you!  I helped run a sr. professional tournament there and found it both an enjoyable and highly competitve golf course.  It was well received by all the participants.  It would be a great warm up before a round @ Victoria Natl., or a "wind down".

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,
  I do believe that Long Cove is a great course, but it still has it's areas of criticism, as do most golf courses, but so much of that is by opinion, just like this website-which is why the dicussion groups are always interesting.
  As for Lost Dunes-just because a course is rated doesn't make it great. Take a look at Sage Valley, Sycamore Hills Atlantic, Briar's Creek....there were/are rated, but it doesn't mean that they really belong....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

I know as well as anyone that the rankings are not the end of the story as far as whether a course is great or not.  I simply said that I couldn't think of Lost Dunes as my most underrated course anymore.

But, your dissent isn't the last word, either.  I've got a pretty good idea how the course plays over 20 or so rounds there.

Last but not least, we got into this because of Wicked Pony, so I should say something about it.  I'll be there in three more days to make adjustments to the shaping of the front nine holes; after that I can give a more honest appraisal of where I think it stands.  But I don't think it's going to be the weak link in our last ten courses, I can tell you that right now.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,
  You do, without a doubt, have a hell of a superintendent in Eric and I'm not doubting you or crew's abilities. I just think too many people just assume...kind of like developers signing on Fazio to do their course and assuming that it's going to be something special or assuming that Mr. Fazio himself is going to be there often. A name doesn't always mean it will be a hit. At least you're approach along with C&C's is different-y'all allow yourselves more time on each project and not try to tackle 15+ courses at a time. Next time that I'm home in Grand Rapids, MI, I will try to get down to Lost Dunes again. It's been 4 years since I've been there.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[George Pazin]

Tony, just because a bunch of bozos feel the site posters blindly follow Tom and C&C doesn't make it so.

Enjoy the low country, we finally got a decent day in the Burgh and I'm stuck at work!

[Garland Bayley]

It is my understanding that Tom was allowed to pick the best land for the course at Wicked Pony. If I remember correctly from what I have read on this site, he was even able to get them to add some very desirable land. I think Tom will do just fine at Wicked Pony, thank you very much!

Thanks for the kind words Joe. Just call me Dr. Logic!  

[Dan Herrmann]

How about some older courses - Portland GC, Waverley, Eugene - style?

[peter_p]

    The Tradition started as a senior major in Scottsdale at Desert Mountain. Nicklaus courses have always seemed to pop up on Senior PGA tour events. It's move from AZ was always questionable to me. Did the organizers figure the cost-benefit ratio was to small once Desert Mountain was on its way to build-out?
    It's transition to the Reserve Vineyards (Fought) must have also been bittersweet to Tom Kite,  who had an option on the property.  Was the Champions' Tour taking a flyer that Peter Jacobsen was going to be a major star, moving it to his home town?
    I speculate that Sunriver may have looked at its position in the Bend area market, and that its cachet may be slipping. Remember that they hosted a Shell's WWF match between Couples and Daly and paid for the privilege. They have been agressive in courtships of tournaments from the USGA and the NCAA and have upgraded the old courses.
   The Bend area is the fastest growing area in Oregon, and their demographics are much closer to the PGA target than was in Portland. Sunriver still has the best nose for golf in central Oregon, and it will stay at Sunriver.
   Major sponsor Jeld-Wen has financial interests at Eagle Crest and Running Y, both of which are competitiors to Sunriver, but they still chose Sunriver.

And Garland, where is Tribute?