Maidstone watering

[Ray Tennenbaum]

a story begging for GCA deconstruction

http://www.easthamptonstar.com/DNN/Default.aspx?tabid=1841

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I know that this course is one of Tom Paul's favourites so I await his comments on this topic with eager anticipation.

[Rich Goodale]

The key phrase seems to be:

“We want to create a better course year round,”

All other things being equal, it's hard to argue with that.

[JESII]

But rich, the statement... "We want to create a better course year round,” implies that brown is no good on a golf course...would you argue with that?

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, Jim, I shall argue, and vigourously!

There is nothing in that statement I quoted that implies anything about colour or anything else except "goodness."

Are you opposed to goodness?

Rich

[jeffwarne]

Those who disagree with maidstone's request to have the ability to water their fairways should march straight to their green committees and superintendant and demand that they PERMANANTLY disable their fairway irrigation.

[JESII]

The implication...and it is there...is that the course is not good when the fairways are not watered...when grass is not watered it turns brown...when these fairways are not watered they (Maidstone GC) feel they are not good...is it to much of a stretch for me to derive the "brown = bad - green = good" mindset at work behind this?

[jeffwarne]

JES,
Brown gras plays great and I think the powers at maidstone appreciate this.
The problem is in an extended heat wave (which we get out east nearly every summer) grass is lost after awhile requiring extensive reseeding in the fall.Causing the course to play quite soft during a greatk time for golf(fall) and creating alot of work for the crew.
This also requires irrigation unless rains are timely.
Again, why should maidstone be denied what your club(I'm assuming) and every club has?
I'm assuming you've already called your green chairman with your proposal of PERMANANTLY eliminating fairway irrigation?

How they use it will determine the greeness.

[Rich Goodale]

No, Jim

Please re-read the last quotes from the super:

"Mr. Williams said it was important to control the irrigation of the fairways so as not to damage the Maidstone’s links character. “A links course should be firm and fast. It’s up to who’s putting water on; just enough water to keep the grass from dying or going dormant. You can overwater, a bad thing. It could change the nature of the course,” Mr. Williams said."

I fear you have been spending too much time talking to TE Paul, who knows as much about about holes in the ground as he does about his .......

[JESII]

Rich,

That's a very timely post there as I was about to bring one very brief (but extremely important) part of your quote in..."just enough water to keep the grass from dying or going dormant"[/i]

That is the opening of Pandora's Box that causes my concern...bent grass is great when it is dormant...and you know what, it bounces back in no time.



Jeff,

I understand your point of view, and completely agree, but this superintendent is already using 2 - 3 million gallons per week as his target number. Maybe he is just setting a very high end buffer so he has room to play with, and Tom Paul will be able to relay his conversations with the Shinnecock super about their numbers...they are much higher out on the island due to soil structure and evaporation rates or some such thing, but 3 million gallons per week seems like alot.

I believe our superintendent here in the Philadelphia suburbs uses 8 - 10 million gallons per year.

[Rich Goodale]

Possibly interesting point, Jim

Does dormant = brown or vice versa?  How can a super (or GCA wing-nut) tell the differnce between brown/dead and brown/dormant without ripping up the roots?

I've played a lot of brown in my days, BTW............

Rich

[JESII]

I'd bet this super...and most others...would be able to tell dormant from dead  by looking at it/walking on it/feeling it (pulling some out) and or smelling it.

[jeffwarne]

Richard,
My guess is a superintendant knows the difference.
You don't need to be a super to know maidstone had a lot of dead grass that required reseeding the last couple falls.

I love brown,even dead grass as a playing surface.
And maidstone remains one of my favorite places.
But I'm not the superintendant at maidstone charged with its' upkeep.
Hopefully the irrigation will be used sparingly to keep the grass alive, but like Pandora's box it may not.

It just seems hypocritical for those at clubs with irrigation to be surprised maidstone wants the same options.

[JESII]

Jeff,


You have a great point...and it represents a position I frequently take on here...is that this is the club's decision 100% and we have to respect that.

I have only played Maidstone once, and really enjoyed it, and to be honest it was not firm then so I have no frame of referrence on this.

I would be curious what their actual turf loss is in a typical season.

[Anthony_Nysse]

JES,
  2 million gallons a week isn't that much, really. Especially when the course has very sandy soils. We used over 50 million gallons last year and we have very sandy, hydrophobic soils. Let them water-It will help out the superintendent more than it will supposedly ruin everyone's round...or at least in the eus of GCAer's...I'm not a fan of Maidstone anyways-I think that it will help it out emensly....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[JESII]

Makes sense Tony, I did mention that 2-3 million gallons per week out there probably doesn't mean squat in comparison to the Philly suburbs where I am for the exact reason you say.

I'll recind my objections based on Jeff's and your concerns which come from more experience and objectivity, but I do worry about the couple little hints in there about dormant grass...

Thanks

[TEPaul]

This has been on the table for at least a decade. I'm sorry to see it happen but I knew it was inevitable at some point. Of the country's top ranked courses with no fairway irrigation, now there will be only two. I don't know if Newport ever intends to do it but I will stake my life on the fact that Fisher's never will.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Jim and Jeff

Every golf course that I know in Scotland re-seeds every year, at least in some places.  Does that mean that they have killed the grass in the previous year, or just that they want to help mother nature along a bit in her annual job of regeneration?

Sincerely

Rich

PS--the fact that the climate is very moderate over here, i.e. very little stress on the grass from either extreme heat or cold, might make things different, he says naively.....

[TEPaul]

Richard:

The grass on those courses of which we are aware that have no fairway irrigation is just about as tough as nails because it obviously has to be to defend itself seaonally year after year with no artificial irrigation help. For instance, I've seen Maidstone's fairways in August or whatever where they are totally fried---totally. But then along comes a good rain and literally in two days those fairways are green again. Does that sound like completely dead grass to you?  

[JESII]

Sean,

I can only imagine it is me who you perceive as "getting on Rich's case", and it was not my intent...nor do I think he took it that way. My recinded objections were based purely in the Pandora's Box potential...I saw that potential because of a few of the words attributed to the superintendent in the attached article.

[Rich Goodale]

Jim and Sean

Nae problemos with you compadres

That was just Tommy Paul off his medications and on his high horse.  I'm sure his nurse will track him down shortly.

Rich

[JESII]

Rich,


Can you imagine trying to balance that amount of medication? Really an impressive feat on the two or three days a month he manages to get out of the pen...

[Kalen Braley]

On a related note.  Found this link about a course in Florida being challenged because of its 1 million gallon per day water allotment.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2007/04/10/s1a_GOLFCOURSE_0410.html

That seems to be an awful lot of water.  Is this typical for courses in Florida??

[SL_Solow]

I note that no one has suggested that the members lack the right to put in irrigation; those opposed are questioning the wisdom of the choice.  Nothing wrong with that.

I note the Old Course added irrigation some time ago.  I have only played it post irrigation and found it to play firm and fast.  Can anyone who has played there both before and after the addition of irrigation comment on whether the addition of the irrigation system has adversely impacted on the playing characteristics of the course?  If the conditions have not been changedor they have improved while the grass has been in better health, that would suggest that the Maidstone super should be able to achieve his objectives notwithstanding the feared opening of Pandora's box.  If the answer is negative, the outlook becomes less sanguine.  I confess that I loved the way Maidstone played when I was fortunate enough to play there.

[Pete Wendt]

The reason many of you can't tell the difference between dormant and dead is because you don't know the difference.  There is a very easy way to tell.  If it turns to dirt and weeds, it was dead.  

If Maidstone wants to save the time, energy, and costs invoved in re-seeding and growing turf back-in after a tough summer, then I say smart move.  That doesn't mean that they are going to soak it down every day and turn it into a spongey mess.  I have heat in my house, but I don't use it when I don't need it.  They obviously know what they are doing.  Smart move not having to keep it wet growing areas back in during a beautiful fall golf season, or having to play off of dirt.

One important point to remember for all is that each golf course is different.  What works in Scotland may not work in New York.  Check the weather patterns.  What works at one club in a city may not work at another club in a city due to microclimates, grasses, soil types, budgets, staffing, members wants and needs, etc.

I grew up in a family involved in Nuclear Power generation, but surprisingly that does not make me a Nuclear Engineer.  Just because you happen to play golf and have a lawn, it still doesn't make you an expert in  the field of turfgrass management!!!

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