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Patrick_Mucci

What would it take ?
« on: September 08, 2002, 06:36:40 PM »
What would it take to hire one of the top green superintendents from one of the great courses in America  ?

Certain clubs are at the top of the career pyramid,
how would another club go about hiring a superintendent from one of those "DESTINATION CLUBS"  like NGLA, for example ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2002, 07:01:06 PM »
Pat Mucci:

I assume you are not asking for salary information. Other factors that might come into account:

1) Opportunities to host majors

2) New construction project

3) Better situation for family

4) Better management environment

5) Higher budget
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2002, 07:04:26 PM »
Tim,

Do you think that the Oakmont's, Baltusrol's, Shinnecock's, Merion's and NGLA's of the world don't offer those things ?

I referenced those clubs at the top of the superintendent food chain for a reason.

You're not reading between the lines carefully enough.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2002, 07:15:38 PM »
Pat Mucci:

Of course, top clubs/courses offer such things. But, that doesn't mean the situation for every superintendent is ideal.  You need to get to know such individuals personally before they will open up and let you know what might encourage them to move. This is not the place to share private conversations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2002, 07:19:09 PM »
Tim Weiman,

Relax........

Sleep on this thread and it will all come to you in the morning.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2002, 07:24:54 PM »
Pat Mucci:

I got to play golf both Saturday and Sunday this weekend, something that rarely happens to me these days.

So, I'm plenty relaxed!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2002, 07:36:34 PM »
Pat,

Here are a few that come to mind:

Obvious:

1) Aspiration to top job...many 1st Asst's will move for top job

2) $$$$...many long established top clubs don't pay anywhere near top $$$ and the Trumpsters of the world are so willinging to brag about hiring away a "star."

3) Frustration with local membership...rare, but true...i.e. Riveria, Southern Hills, etc...(maybe even GC?)

Not so Obvious:

1) Real Family reasons...desire to get the family into a better lifestyle, scholls, etc...

2) Desire to make something "special" from scratch...


For others see "Miracle on Breeze Hill....the story of Atlantic"

Just thoughts.....let's play soon!

slapper

4)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2002, 07:47:01 PM »
Seems to me if I think about where the supers of many of those "destination clubs" go and have gone--it might help if the club hiring them was another one of those "destination clubs"!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mr. IKnow

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2002, 08:10:43 PM »
What Mr. Mucci is getting at is that Mr. Olsen is leaving NGLA for Arizona.  So he's asking a real life question.  How would an actual club in AZ go about hiring Mr. Olsen away from NGLA??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad miller

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2002, 03:26:32 AM »
Pat, I think this is easy, assuming most of the other things generally work, location...., having only ONE person to report to for a long long time, the CZAR concept, maybe two with a great pro, something like that project out on Long Island, but then again that has many of the other benfits mentioned on this thread. ONE GUY THAT GETS IT.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mr. IKnow

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2002, 08:01:49 PM »
Mr. Mucci

Is it possible that the more appropriate question to ask, in this instance, is:

What could NGLA be up to that might have caused Mr. Olsen to want to leave??

You seem to often be in the know, so could you please enlighten us all?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2002, 03:17:06 AM »
MrIKnow,

Your anonymous name implies that you know, so I needn't answer.

Post under your real, verifiable name and I'll take the question in earnest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2002, 06:58:08 AM »
Steve,

What is the deal at Southern Hills?

Pat/IKnow,

Where in AZ is he going?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2002, 07:12:28 AM »
Pat

Why does Larry Brown keep changing jobs? Sometimes, supers are like head coaches...they like the challenge of improving a situation more than they like maintaining a current "good thing". Could be the sentiment of "I've done all I can do here". So a new challenge could be very enticing.

Oh, and a cut of the action probably would help, too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2002, 10:11:03 AM »
Pat,

I almost feel the same about your question as you do about Mr. IKNOW's anonymous name. I understand there is probably a tiptoe factor here, but that may be the first indication that the question isn't necessary or appropriate. I, of course, could be reading too much or too little into all this.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

ian

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2002, 04:36:46 PM »
I have a couple of friends who have made the decision for a lower profile club. One put it really well, "the best golf course, does not equate to the best job."

A single person can be enough. A brutal green's chairman, followed by one of his buddies can be too much to stomach. One super I knew quit after getting 43 e-mails in one month from his greens chairman. He had been there for a lot of years too. Rather than fight it, he took another job.

Pat, Could Mr. Olsen simply be finished what he set out to do?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2002, 04:50:33 PM »
Ian,

At the present time, I couldn't answer that question.
It is possible that he perceived that very little in the way of reclamation or new projects would be undertaken, but, I had heard that there were a number of small projects on the agenda.

Hod,

I'm not familiar with Larry Brown.

Scott,

Sometimes the thought of semi-retirement or a pre-retirement change to a warmer climate is appealing, especially if the offer is lucrative.

Other times the arrival of a new regime or green chairman can precipitate a desire to move on.

In other cases, certain supers are like nomads or hired guns, they arrive to correct and/fix a bad situation, and when the work is done after a few years they move on.

Other times a combination of the above factors causes a move, or the super's health, his wife's health or yearings, or the desire to return to his native locale can have an influence.

Supers at "NAME" courses may tire of the pressure or the work and pressure associated with getting a course ready every year for a big event.

What ever Karl's reasons, he did a great job, not just for NGLA, but for all of GOLF, and we should be thankful and wish him well.

The next question is:

Who will be the next super at NGLA ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2002, 04:58:53 PM »
IMHO I would not think that NGLA would be what most supers would consider a career job.  Everyday you see more and more supers opt for jobs where they work for a corporation or resort vs. working a a place that is run by committee. They can make more money and better  benefits in many cases. There is too much to risk at these places.  You haver a new boss almost every year and all it takes is one that doesn't agree or wants another.  And now you see many leave when a restoration or renovation comes along and someone suggest new blood.  I know a lot of supers and not many would recommend it to their sons.  The business has changed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

ian

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2002, 04:59:27 PM »
Like Steininger (sorry about the spelling?) at Pine Valley, his name is always associated with the current course. How long was he there Pat.

Oh I found this interesting, the fellow at Pine Valley is in his 16th year. He's 37!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2002, 05:07:17 PM »
Mike,

I've been a super for 17 years, at age 41 now. My son is in his second year of the turf program at Michigan State. And you're dead right: I told him to do something else, because he's smarter than me! If it's in your blood, may as well not fight it.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2002, 05:25:21 PM »
Mike Young,

I would disagree with your perspective on the benefit of working for a corporation vs a DESTINATION club.

I believe the green chairman at NGLA has probably served in that capacity for 10-15-20 years.  Turnover at certain DESTINATION clubs is rare.  Just look at Seminole, Pine Valley and some other clubs, especially at clubs where there is but one BOSS or a small cadre of benevolent dictators.

Mike and Joe,

The world has changed.

I know generation after generation of families that were doctors.  Today, they all tell their kids to do something else, that medicine, with the advent of managed care has changed drastically, and the liabilities have escalated enormously due to the legal climate.  That it just ain't what it used to be.

I would tell my kids the same about the Insurance business.
It's not the same.

The world has changed, and that happened before 09-11-01.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would it take ?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2002, 05:33:54 PM »
Pat,

I never was a super at an upper echelon club. I did a stint at Landfall/ Dye Course as irrigation tech back when it was under construction. Years later...a few courses built, and now an owner of a daily fee. I know thats what a lot of guys dream of, but believe it or not, I still miss looking for other opportunities. I bet a main reason for anyone moving on is to take a step closer to independence. The thrill of the chase never goes away though.

Joe

P.S.
One thing fun about that Landfall job was getting to tote around Pete Dye's photographer for a couple days. He was on his way out of the Dye organization as he was looking to build his first as an architect. He asked me about fine fescues, said Ben Crenshaw was a good friend....he is very popular on this site!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Logged
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017
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