Bill Coore at Barnbougle

[Ash Towe]

I noticed this thread from Iseekgolf forums-your favourite golf courses-started by member Mac.
Bill Coore was seen at Barnbougle for a couple of weeks doing a routing for a new course.  Apparently he is doing this without Ben Crenshaw.
Perhaps the aussie guys can enlighten us on this very exciting news.

[Tom_Doak]

I can confirm that Bill is being paid by Mike Keiser to study the possibility of a second course at Barnbougle.  There is no firm timetable for it, everything is dependent on what Bill thinks of its potential (and on how busy he is).

Bill and Ben have long agreed that Ben would not make any design commitments internationally, but that Bill is free to pursue them if he wants to.

Before there is any speculation about what will happen if Bill passes on the job, I already know who is #2 on the depth chart; my associates will be glad to take the job if Bill doesn't want it.  But, again, there is no timetable at present as to when (or if) the course will happen.

[Mark_F]

I can confirm that Bill is being paid by Mike Keiser to study the possibility of a second course at Barnbougle.  There is no firm timetable for it.

There is no timetable at present as to when (or if) the course will happen.

Let's hope it does, but someone needs to keep a check on things.

If you believe that rabid, mischevious lot on ISG, it is a done deal and ready for play next year.

North eastern Tasmania or Bandon, Oregon.  Hmm.

[Ash Towe]

Fingers crossed that this course goes ahead.  It will make it a much better proposition to go to Barnbougle and play 2 courses and then go to Musselroe Bay and play Mike Clayton's course there.  Is there any news on this course and a possible timeline?

[Joel_Stewart]

Bill and Ben have long agreed that Ben would not make any design commitments internationally, but that Bill is free to pursue them if he wants to.

Why would Ben not be interested in design commitments internationally?  It must be his schedule and the long travel times to especially Tasmania.

How is Barnbougle doing financially?  If they are studying the possiblity of a 2nd course, it must be doing well or Mike feels the Bandon model will work in Tasmania.

[Michael Robin]

Tom D.

Is this that amazing property across the Cut from 15 & 16?

[Mark_F]

A second course would surely only enhance business?

I can't imagine too many from WA or even SA justifying a Barnbougle visit for just the one course for a day or so.

But a second course makes the whole scenario much more attractive, and would possibly result in a longer stay, too.

[Tom_Doak]

It is certainly the thinking that a second course would make the place that much more of a destination, however the first course is far from full during the year so a second course is a bit more speculative than it was in Bandon.

Yes, Mike R., it's the land across the cut (east of #15) that Bill is exploring.

I will be the first to let you know when something is really going to happen, but my sense from talking with Mike Keiser is that it would be at least a couple of years away from starting.

Joel:  For the international projects, Ben might choose to make a visit if he wants to, but he doesn't want to have any contractual obligations to do so (especially since that would also require him to attend groundbreakings, openings, etc.).  I never knew until recently how much time clients might want from us for the p.r. part of golf course architecture.

However, Mark, I might respond to your last post that there is nothing wrong with playing the current Barnbougle course two or three times!

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, suppose you design another course at Barnbougle.  Will it be easy, or hard, to do something different from the current course there?  Would you work with the same kind of land?

In general, does the land pretty well dictate the course you design?  Or can you produce two very different courses, that are still quite good, on any given site?  

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

I've only ever spent part of one day on the site for the potential second course.  The contours are bigger and broader ... it's almost hilly in places ... but there is some really good water frontage as well.  I think it would produce a bit different course than the first whether Bill designed it or I did, even without trying to differentiate it.

But of course it can be differentiated more if that is your goal.  It's not just a matter of bunker styling or the size of greens ... the most important thing would be to design 18 holes that are really different than any of the holes on the existing course, and to find another alternative if one of the holes you've found is too close for comfort.

One of the reasons Bill is first in line for this project instead of me is that he would put a bit different face on his course.  Another is that, although I have not studied the property for #2, I am proud enough of the first course to think that it would not be easy to equal with the second; but if we are asked, I would assign a different associate to this course to be sure we are properly motivated to succeed.

[Tyler Kearns]

Why would Ben not be interested in design commitments internationally?  It must be his schedule and the long travel times to especially Tasmania.

Joel,

I remember reading recently that Ben prefers not to pursue international projects because of he wants to see his kids grow-up (his two youngest children are 14 and 9 years old).

TK

[Mark_F]

However, Mark, I might respond to your last post that there is nothing wrong with playing the current Barnbougle course two or three times!

Tom,

Absolutely not.

However, I imagine Barnbougle is being mostly sustained by the Melbourne/Sydney golfer, for whom it is a 1 or 2 hour direct flight for $200 or so, which makes a 36 holes in a day trip feasible, or, my favourite, pulling a sickie during the week.

From Perth it is a 5-6 hour flight with a wait for connections, and costs more like $500-600.  Adelaide is around a 3 hour flight with conections again in Melbourne, at least through Virgin Blue, and costs $300 or so, making Barnbougle for both either a public holiday or annual leave destination, I imagine.

Or, for those fortuitous enough to still have them, an RDO trip.  

A second course - or even a third with the Musselroe project -makes a week long trip much easier to justify for those who reside in the lesser states.

Last figure I heard was Barnbougle had put through 15-16000 rounds in a year.

[Shane Gurnett]

Tom Doak, if you get the second course will it be another co-design with Mike Clayton (like the first one)?

[Ash Towe]

Mark is totally correct when he states that 2 or more courses makes the trip easier to justify.  You have to fly to Tasmania, pick up a rental car and probably stay at least one night.  The expenses start to add up.  I went with 3 others from New Zealand and we all loved the course and experience but we would find it hard to go back because of the time and cost.  We would probably stay longer in Melbourne or the Mornington Peninsula.

[Mark_F]

Tom Doak, if you get the second course will it be another co-design with Mike Clayton (like the first one)?

Wouldn't that make the area a trifle over familiar with Mike Clayton courses, assuming the Musselroe project goes ahead?

It would probably be a better idea for Tom, if he were to get the second course, to collaborate with Brian Walshe, Simon Hiscock and Justin Ryan, since Tom could learn a lot from them.

[Kevin Pallier]

From Perth it is a 5-6 hour flight with a wait for connections, and costs more like $500-600.  Adelaide is around a 3 hour flight with conections again in Melbourne, at least through Virgin Blue, and costs $300 or so, making Barnbougle for both either a public holiday or annual leave destination, I imagine.

Mark

Cheper and less taxing than sitting on a plane for 18+ hours to play links golf in GB&I  

[James Bennett]

Kevin

you are correct, but the size of golfing market that travels overseas for golf is limited.

Launceston (and Bridgport) are not easy locations to get to from Adelaide (and I assume Perth and Brisbane).  You have to really want to get there, perhaps as part of the Tasmania round-trip.  Yes, many of us want to get there (eg Ed Getka) and some of us plan to get there (perhaps November with some Adelaide golf buddies for me) but from Adelaide, you have to want to get there.  The trip is likely to be close to a full day (from Home in Adelaide to Barnbougle) for something that is perhaps just over 500 miles or just under a thousand kilometres.  And the golf, whilst cheap from a world perspective at $80 Australian (or thereabouts) will appear expensive to the average Adelaide golfer (whose maximum golfing game outlay is either $50 for a game as a guest at one of the top clubs or an amount greater than $80 to play a Queensland resort course that complements a more expensive family holiday in the sun).  And it will take some period of time to get there and back, making a short visit impractical.

There may be tremendous potential for Barnbougle and other golf courses from markets such as Adelaide, but that will need to be developed over time.  A direct Adelaide/Launceston flight would help (I understand that there are not direct flights to Bandon.  However, in Australia, you can get a direct flight between most cities, so the population expects it and sees less value in paying double for the privilege and delay involved in taking two short-leg flights instead.) This may sound pathetic (and probably is) but it is the reality at this point of time.

James B

[ed_getka]

James,
  One difference between BD and Bandon is that you can fly part way and then drive the rest. Tasmania being an island precludes that idea. However, I can't see why someone who was going to be in Melbourne for a few days of golf wouldn't just do what David and I are doing, and just going down for a full day of golf. Fly in the night before, golf all day, fly back to Melbourne at the end of the day. 36 holes of golf in a 24 hour period at what by all accounts is a great golf course. Even with round trip airfare, rental car, and room for the night you are still below the cost of a round at Pebble Beach.
   Given the realities of what normal golf costs in your area, I can identify with how the expense may seem hard to justify for some. Certainly not for you though Mr. world traveler!
    See you in a couple of weeks.

[James Bennett]

James,

Given the realities of what normal golf costs in your area, I can identify with how the expense may seem hard to justify for some. Certainly not for you though Mr. world traveler!

See you in a couple of weeks.

Ed

the island issue you raised is also an importnat element.

However, once you realise the relative value of places like Barnbougle, and the relative total costs involved in a golfing holiday (as Kevin Pallier was pointing outnad as you also pointed out) then Barnbougle becomes a great location.  Barnbougle will boom as 3 and 5 day golf visits by groups of golfing buddies become more commonplace in Australia.  Again, an emerging, developing market (in my mind).

My possible November trip might involve a start at Barnbougle (ie a two leg flight to Launceston) and a finish in Hobart, followed by a direct flight home.  Of course, the obligatory stopover in Melbourne has us thinking we must stop and go down to the melbourne sand-belt and spend a couple of days.  So the Barnbougle visit can quickly become a Melbourne/Barnbougle/Hobart visit, which implies at least 5 days necessitating a further level of agreement from our respective wives.  It will be fun though, in November (I hope).  Even if we strike cored greens somewhere.

James B

[George Pazin]

Aside from the insanity of not desiring to play Barnbougle multiple times for mutiple days , the only thing I'll add is that there are seem to be some unusual factors that might help, where normally one wouldn't think to add a course when the first is doing 15,000 rounds.

1) I think the first course was built extremely inexpensively, and I see no reason to think a second by Bill Coore wouldn't be, as well;

2) I assume the land is already long paid for by the owner, Mr. Sattler.

So, adding a second course might really help, without being a gigantic additional burden.

Of course, I would gladly spend every day there, playing only Barnbougle, for many days on end. But I'm a little odd that way, I suppose. Now, if I could only find the time to get there....