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John Kavanaugh

17th at Bandon Dunes
« on: April 18, 2007, 09:01:22 AM »
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/bandon_hole17.cfm

I have only played the hole once but found the drive and approach both exhilarating.  Why is this now being said to be a bad hole?

John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2007, 10:03:42 AM »
I saw the same complaint that there's nowhere to drive the ball. That may be true, but it's about 60 yards wide when you hit a 3-4 wood, leaving a short to mid iron.  The green is 60 yards deep, and one of the most undulating on the course.  I like that hole a lot.

If there's an indifferent hole at Bandon Dunes, it's number 9.

John Kavanaugh

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2007, 10:18:35 AM »
I can't be sure because I have only been there once...but isn't the approach after a good drive one of if not the only potential severe penalty for not making a forced carry on the course.  That being that even after a drop you still have a difficult shot of some distance.  I like the thought of the 17th being a real round buster given that the 18th is just another coast it home par 5.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2007, 10:20:41 AM »
John,

One could argue there's little reward for skill on the tee shot, and that somehow diminishes the accomplishment of making a good score on the hole.  I'm not saying I agree, but consider the options:
1)  Hitting it over on the left side means threading the needle between the bunkers--i.e., you have to be lucky, not skillful, especially when you consider the wind is often howling on that bluff.  I hit it over there once with a 3- or 5-wood, and as I walked up and saw my ball sitting in between the hazards, indeed I felt lucky to have avoided them.  I remember having a good look at the green with a mid-iron.

2) If you hit it on purpose or by accident over to the right, the ball can keep rolling and rolling, either into the baranca or into the bunker at the end of the fairway.  I did that once too, and felt lucky to have found the bunker.  Of course the approach shot from there is no picnic--a mid-iron from a bunker with ~160 yds of carry, I'm guessing, but at least my ball was in play.  

3) I suppose you could bunt it around the hole with a 5-iron, 5-iron, wedge or something--I've never tried that one.

So it seems like the only sensible thing is to aim left, hope you avoid the bunkers and find your ball up on that plateau, or if not that it gently rolls down into the middle.  The better look at the green is from the plateau--but it's not much of a reward--no matter where you are, as you said, the second shot is challenging, and as John Kirk observed, the green is intimidating.

I like the hole, but I find little to complain about when playing golf in Bandon, Oregon.  If that hole was on a course full of similarly penal-unless-you're-lucky holes, maybe I would have a less charitable view.


JohnV

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2007, 10:22:50 AM »
I have to agree that 17 is a fun hole with an amazing green.  Possibly one of the most interesting since the 18th at Sitwell Park.

The tee shot wasn't bad before they added that little fairway to the left.  It did get tight if you tried to drive it into the neck.

I like #9, although not as much as most holes out there.  The center bunkers are about the perfect distance off the tee to cause trouble for the longer hitters.  Hit it in them and forget going for the green in two, but miss them and you are rewarded.  The area around the green is a little blah and the fact that you could blast the tee shot right and have no problems bothered.

This is probably blasphemy, but the hole that never did a lot for me was #4.  The tee shot was a layup and except for the beauty of the ocean behind the green I wasn't over excited by the second.  I think that a long hitter with the normal North wind might even be able to drive it right up by or on the green.

Tom Huckaby

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 10:23:06 AM »
I'd say you both have the hole right.

But it all depends on the wind.  Into the wind, JK has it assessed perfectly.  It's a tough tee shot but the hazard isn't really reachable, so the issue is just keeping it between the bunker and the hazard... then the approach is a tough one for sure, to a pretty darn incredible green.

When it's downwind, the club required to properly lack back short of the left bunker and thus well short of the hazard on the right (and straight ahead) can be a middle iron or less... And people don't tend to enjoy holes where that's the tee shot requirement.

In any case JK has the difficulty and how it fits in with the rest of the course absolutely correct.

I think it's a damn good hole into the wind or with no wind, but I can see the complaints downwind.

And what's interest is there is a LOT of room way left... if they would cut that to make it light rough or maybe even fairway, all issues are settled... in downwind times if one wants to hit a longer club, one would then just go left... Odd to me they don't do this.

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2007, 10:24:44 AM »
Eric,

How similar is the need to get lucky in missing the bunkers to that same need at The Old Course.

Steve Pieracci

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2007, 10:25:39 AM »
"#17 is interesting but, in my opinion, perhaps the worst designed hole at the resort--there's just nowhere to put your tee shot."  

I too enjoyed this hole.  This was one of the holes that it wasn't raining, and that may be part of the enjoyment. ;)  There is plenty of room to put your tee shot as Mr. Kirk has stated.  The hole played into the wind the one time I played PD.  If you play a 220 - 230 yard tee ball, you are left with 150 - 160 into the green.  It is an exciting shot with the threatening cliff on the right.  My tee ball was left of the bunkers, leaving a long shot from a scruffy lie.  Not the best, but playing the hole left of the bunkers is an option on 17.  

I don't remember #9 very well.  I think is was so windy that the bunkers didn't affect us.    

Tom Huckaby

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2007, 10:26:35 AM »
Re other holes...

I also like 9.  There are a lot of bunkers out there to keep one honest... into the wind it's a tough three shotter, downwind it's an action-packed reachable shorty....

And one must play 4 into the wind to fully respect it.  Again, downwind it too becomes problematic.  But into the wind or with a cross-wind it's a damn tough hole.  I also find the walk to that corner and the view of the ocean (the first real look at it) pretty darn insipiring.  JV, methinks you're standards have gotten way too high.   ;)

Eric_Terhorst

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2007, 10:31:19 AM »
Eric,

How similar is the need to get lucky in missing the bunkers to that same need at The Old Course.

John K, my impression is there's more width at TOC, but I wish I could say for sure--I've never played it.

ed_getka

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2007, 10:35:09 AM »
I like #17. The drive is not as easy as it seems, the ball often seems to end up more right than you think it will. Bailing out left brings the longer rough into play and makes the approach a bit more dicey. Given that you are generally contending with a crossing wind(I thought, apparently from what the posts above say my memory is in error) on that hole, I think you need the width they provide on the hole, although that width narrows down some for longer tee balls. There is pressure on ANY approach shot, even from the fairway, as that green is probably the most challenging on the course. Just getting on the green is not enough, you feel you need to get somewhat near to the hole to avoid three-putting. All in all I find it a good challenge near the end of the round.
   I agree with JakaB that #18 is not much of a finisher. I definitely agree with John Kirk that #9 isn't much of a hole. Mostly I dislike #13 the par 5. I'm starting to see a pattern here with these 3 holes being par 5's.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 10:39:21 AM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

JohnV

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2007, 10:37:29 AM »
JV, methinks you're standards have gotten way too high.   ;)

Probably right, I've seen the ocean before.

I've played it in all kinds of wind and I agree that the tee shot can be tough, perhaps I don't like it because it is a guaranteed lost ball for anything wide that bugs me.

At one time I wasn't a big fan of 6, but they fixed that by making it playable from the right.  I used to think the best way to play it into the wind was to take driver and hook it into the ocean giving a drop by the green.

John Kavanaugh

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 10:40:21 AM »
Is there one of those "secret" tees at the 17th to make the hole play more like 420 or so.  I've always heard the course can be stretched much further than the resort card indicates.

Sean Leary

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 10:44:03 AM »
JK,

The secret tee is right of the fairway area and makes  it a par 3 over the barranca...

Tom Huckaby

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2007, 10:45:00 AM »
JV:

Well of course I've seen the ocean a few times in my life as well.   ;)

And that golf hole continues to inspire me.  Oh, it's a tough tee shot for sure... but generally it's a layup - that is, something shorter than driver - so it being tight doesn't bother me.  If I can't keep an iron in that fairway it's my own damn fault.  Then the approach is always going to be a very tough, very fun one no matter how one gets there.  On top of that, the green is damn good.

Interesting how we differ on this also... I liked 6 better before!  Hell it's only 150 yards... to me making it an all or nothing target was fun.  The miss area to the right kinda cheapens it for me.  Now if it was longer I'd be with you.  And I guess it does work better now for all wind conditions.  But I kinda like a do or die par three here and there... that's why I prefer 11 PD to 6 BD, as they stand now.... I sure don't want all par threes to be this way, but one or two in a course make things fun for me.

TH

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -8
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2007, 10:59:07 AM »
There is actually a secret tee both left and right on 17 that makes it play as a par 3.

JohnV

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 11:28:43 AM »
Tom, #6 can play well over 150 yards as I recall and into a big wind, it could be unplayable from the back tees in the first year or two.

John,

There are a lot of tees that aren't on the score card.  Bandon Dunes can play over 7200 yards from the tips.

Andy Ryall

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 11:33:07 AM »
Memories of this hole from June 2002 were of it playing downwind and crosswind forcing balls right.   On the tee it looks like the ravine is much more in play than it actually is.  I like the fact that if you choose to play left, you do bring some luck into the equation with the pot bunkers and some odd lies.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 11:33:57 AM »
JV:

Tips on the current scorecard for #6 are 161.  I'd concur with it being unplayable into the wind as it was before... but from a distance much longer than that.  Was it also longer before?  I cant' recall.

I sure never played it longer than 150-160.  But then again I don't have much tee ego.

 ;D

JohnV

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 11:43:52 AM »
Tom, I believe there is a tee that is at least 180 yards.  The OGA website says the "Tournament" tees are 7212, but they don't give the breakdown.  That is about 500 yards longer than Bandon's scorecard on the web so I'd assume that some of it is on #6.  It has been a few years since we did the first rating there (1998), but I recall that there are tees that stretch the course to around 7400 yards.

Tim Pitner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 11:45:15 AM »
Since I'm the one being quoted from another thread regarding #17, let me explain my thinking.

I don't think #17 is a bad hole.  I honestly don't think there's a bad hole at the resort.  

As I said, I find #17 to be an interesting hole.  The green is enormous and has some cool contours.  The drive is testing, with the bunkers left and the ravine right, which is fun.  

My issue with the hole is that, into the wind (particularly if the pin is back), you need to hit driver just to give yourself a 5-6 iron into the green.  And, as someone else said, you have to go left, and there's a lot of luck involved as to whether you end up in the bunkers.

Now, I understand the option--take on the bunkers left or play more safely to the right, leaving yourself a longer shot.  Into the wind, that second option is something like 3 or 5 wood and then 3 or 4 iron.  The hole has some issues downwind too.

I find nothing wrong with a challenging hole, but I've seen more people blow up on BD #17 than on any other hole at the resort.  And it often happens to people who didn't hit any particularly bad shots.  Golf is not meant to be fair, fine, but I find the penalties on #17 to be disproportionate to the mistakes made.  

Re: #9 and #18, I think they're unfairly criticized.  They're not world-beaters, but they're fine holes.  
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 12:00:42 PM by Tim Pitner »

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 11:58:56 AM »
I only played it once but thought #17 was a very good hole.  I hit a pretty solid drive down the left side and a very solid 4 iron pin high left about 20'.  

I wish I had listened more closely to my playing partner's caddy when he told me the putt broke a lot more than it looked like... :P  That green is much steeper front to back than it appears.

I actually thought #18 was not as good as #17.

Tom Huckaby

Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 12:01:12 PM »
Tom, I believe there is a tee that is at least 180 yards.  The OGA website says the "Tournament" tees are 7212, but they don't give the breakdown.  That is about 500 yards longer than Bandon's scorecard on the web so I'd assume that some of it is on #6.  It has been a few years since we did the first rating there (1998), but I recall that there are tees that stretch the course to around 7400 yards.

Well, from 180 into the wind, one would hope sanity prevails and the boxes are moved up.   ;)

Sean Leary

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 12:06:17 PM »
Tom, I believe there is a tee that is at least 180 yards.  The OGA website says the "Tournament" tees are 7212, but they don't give the breakdown.  That is about 500 yards longer than Bandon's scorecard on the web so I'd assume that some of it is on #6.  It has been a few years since we did the first rating there (1998), but I recall that there are tees that stretch the course to around 7400 yards.

JVB,

I believe that most of those 500 yards might be on the 11th hole, where tee boxes seem to go back forever. I think that hole is 880 yards from the tips ;)

Doug Sobieski

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Re:17th at Bandon Dunes
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2007, 01:48:57 PM »
Tom, #6 can play well over 150 yards as I recall and into a big wind, it could be unplayable from the back tees in the first year or two.

Is the 217 tee no longer being used? That's where I played it from on my visit in 2002, and I recall hitting 3-wood into the wind to a back pin. I thought it was a lot of fun at that distance.