Shot Values of Bandon vs. Pacific

[Mike Nuzzo]

In an attempt to try and gain a better understanding of the Shot Value criteria in Digest, or to potentially devalue the ratings for myself...

Browsing through this years Digest rankings list I noticed the shot values for Pacific Dunes (8.19) and thought it looked like a high number, given how easy it is , and compared it to Bandon Dunes (7.96).  The resistance to scoring is identical.

I've read it described in the treehouse before that the better player often will choose Bandon over Pacific - more of a test.

Are they both correct?

This seems to support the following quote:

I don't believe a point system is the best way to rank courses.  

[Wyatt Halliday]

Mike,

Unfortunately for me, how certain shots fit my eye determine the comfort level of my swing.
So in my experience, Pacific was so much more psychologically intimidating, specifically on approaches.

#7 for example:

Two different days, two different winds, huge discrepency in club selection (day 1= GW, day 2= 4-iron), same hit, hope and hold on pucker factor.

I am generally a decent ball striker, but could not for the life of me figure out how in the hell I was going to get the ball on the green with either club.

Because of this, I am convinced that shot values directly influence resistence to scoring whether you believe in a point system or not.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Here's how GD defines "shot values", in brief:

How well do the holes present a variety of risks and rewards, and test accuracy, length and finesse without overemphasizing any one skill over the other two?

Pretty subjective, wouldn't you say?  

So methinks each rater interprets this as best as he can.  As for why PD comes out a little higher than BD, my guess is more raters saw a bit more variety at PD and perhaps just a few more fun shots to play.  But given it's a 0-10 scale and it came out as close as it did, well... it's safe to say both courses got very high scores in this criterion.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Good answer Huck. I thought PD had a little more variety for shot making and therefore came out a little higher than BD in my rating. But to be that close is really saying both courses are excellent in that category.

[Ari Techner]

Personally I find that Pacific has more variety of shots than Bandon.  I also think that despite the slightly shorter length, Pacific is harder to score on.  I find it to be harder around and on the greens especially.  I also think that Bandon is alot more open off the tee and with the wind conditions that contributes to Pacific being harder imo.  

[Joe Bentham]

The fact that Bandon and Pac came out so close on shot values is proof that the GD list is a tired, bloated beast waiting to be slain.  Using their definition there is no way Bandon stands up to Pac.  The Variety isn't there, there isn't much of a test of accuracy off the tee (especially considering recent course changes).  The guy who can hit it long SOMEWHERE is rewarded with a short shot that has a chance to get close regardless of one's position in the fairway.  I'm not disagreeing with Bandon be ranked so high, only that it shouldn't be so close in shot value to Pac, or even in the same neighborhood.  What it comes down to in my opinion is whether a ranker likes the course or not.  If he does he's going to find numbers to fit his argument...

[Tom Huckaby]

Joe:

I am a "ranker", as is Jim Franklin (and several other regulars here).

I don't think any of us are particularly clueless, but of course that's open for debate.  

In any case, having played each course several times - most recently about 6 weeks ago - I have to say I disagree with your assessment.  I have them most definitely pretty close in shot values, using the exact definition I posted.  I found a lot of challenge and variety at Bandon.  I did put Pacific a little higher for sure, but they were most definitely in the same neighborhood.

To each his own....

TH

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks guys, I've played both and generally agree with above.

I've heard here that the better player chooses Bandon over Pacific as it's a better test.  Is that true?

If the shot values are less on Bandon is it just the length?

[Michael Dugger]

I have heard too many people agree that Bandon is more playable to NOT think Pacific is more demanding.

There is more room for error at Bandon.  An errant shot does not equate to a triple bogey.

[Tom Huckaby]

I believe that for the better player, Pacific yields more disaster numbers, but the strokes all get lost near the greens.  Thus many prefer to play Bandon, which they see as a more fair test of their skill.  Many also do find Pacific to be too short - but this does not equate to too easy - just too short - not as many chances to bomb away.

Of course their will always be exceptions to this generality.

TH

[Sean Leary]

Pacific on a very calm day with a really good player is probably more rippable than Bandon. Day in and day out however (with wind), I think Pacific is more difficult....

[Ari Techner]

I have played both courses with quite a few better players    (5 or less handicaps and a couple +) and all except 1 liked Pacific better and all of them thought Bandon was easier.  They all loved Bandon also but thought Pacific was more of a challenge.  Consensus among people I know seems to be that Bandon being so much more open off the tee is the main reason they feel this way.  Everyone also seems to like the overall "look" of Pacific better along with the greens.  
I do agree though that on a perfectly calm day a better player could go low on Pacific.      

[peter_p]

IMO Bandon Dunes significant value shots on par 4s at 4, 5, 7, 11, 16, 17, the short fours are teethless to the long ball.
The last three 3's have good value. The par 5s are openly akimbo. Overall, about half the holes and 1/3 the targets.
Six holes have great birdie potential. This is only based on relatively calm conditions.

At Pacific Dunes yu have significant value shots on 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7, 13, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 18, about 2/3 the holes and 1/2 the targets.

Pacific Dunes has better shot values, and to me the comparison is valid. Preference is up to the individual, but if one stereotypes the person who can handle firm and fast conditions, who has enjoyed trips to Scotland, etc., might be more enamored of Pacific Dunes.

[Jason Blasberg]

In any case, having played each course several times - most recently about 6 weeks ago - I have to say I disagree with your assessment.  I have them most definitely pretty close in shot values, using the exact definition I posted.  I found a lot of challenge and variety at Bandon.  I did put Pacific a little higher for sure, but they were most definitely in the same neighborhood.

Huck:

How does Bandon Trails rate in this shot value comparision? (I've still not played BT but hope to do so this Summer).

Cheers,

Jason

[Tim Bert]

IMO Bandon Dunes significant value shots on par 4s at 4, 5, 7, 11, 16, 17, the short fours are teethless to the long ball.
The last three 3's have good value. The par 5s are openly akimbo. Overall, about half the holes and 1/3 the targets.
Six holes have great birdie potential. This is only based on relatively calm conditions.

At Pacific Dunes yu have significant value shots on 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7, 13, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 18, about 2/3 the holes and 1/2 the targets.

Pacific Dunes has better shot values, and to me the comparison is valid. Preference is up to the individual, but if one stereotypes the person who can handle firm and fast conditions, who has enjoyed trips to Scotland, etc., might be more enamored of Pacific Dunes.

To list that many shot values on PD and still exclude the approach on #8, you better duck and cover on this discussion board!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

All I have is this fact.  I played Pacific Dunes in an alternate shot format with a 22 handicap partner and was never in a bunker.  Are the bunkers just eye candy (ie: marginally strategic) or did I just get unexplainably lucky.  The format was we both hit tee shots and then hit each from each others drives and alternate on in from the best ball.  Please note that this is not an opinion and simply a fact of my single round at the course.

[Ari Techner]

All I have is this fact.  I played Pacific Dunes in an alternate shot format with a 22 handicap partner and was never in a bunker.  Are the bunkers just eye candy (ie: marginally strategic) or did I just get unexplainably lucky.  The format was we both hit tee shots and then hit each from each others drives and alternate on in from the best ball.  Please note that this is not an opinion and simply a fact of my single round at the course.

John,
I would say that you simply got extremely lucky.  I have played the course a bunch of times and going hole by hole these are the bunkers I would consider to be very much in play that I have hit alot of balls in myself and seen alot of balls hit into.  

The left greenside bunker collects balls that are on the left short side of the green on #1.  
On #2 both bunkers are quite in play off the tee.  A long slightly pulled drive that does not carry the left fairway bunker will almost certainly go into it.  That bunker is very deep and is pretty much a 1 shot penelty at best.  The center fairway bunker is also deep and makes reaching the green almost impossible.  Near the green anyone short on the right side will find that bunker.    
On #3 the bunkers in the middle of the fairway see a ton of balls depending on wind and the bunker on the left side of the fairway between 150-120 out sees a ton of pulled or hooked lay up shots.  That is also a very tough bunker to get the ball to the green.  The short right side bunker also collects pretty much any ball that lands 25 yards or less short of the green and is not on the extreme left side of the fairway.  
On #4 the left side fairway bunker sees a ton off balls as people aim away from the cliff or simply bail out left.  
The bunker to the left of the #5 green sees alot of balls, anyone that aims on that left side line and hits it too far will find that bunker.  The 2 on the right side also see alot of balls, anyone who hits a fade that is running away from them their ball will roll into one of those bunkers unless it finds the small patch of grass between them and rolls to the bottom of the hill.  
On #6 the right side fairway bunker is a great deterent for anyone wanting to take the optimal right line off the tee but is not aggressive enough with their swing or club selection.  This bunker makes for a very tough 4 on a short hole.  Conversly anyone that pulls a driver or hard fairway wood downwind will find the left greenside bunker where again you will have a very tough 4 even next to the green in 1.  
On #7 the bunker to the front left of the green will collect any approach shot that lands on the left 1/2 of the fairway in front of the greeen or any shot that lands short with a draw.  I have been in that bunker downwind more times than I care to remember.  
On #8 the greenside bunker is brilliant and makes the hole what it is.  I have seen many many balls hit into that bunker.  
On #9 the left bunker on the face of the ridge will catch any ball that is pulled and not hit extremely solid when going for the bottom of the split fairway.  
On #11 all the bunkers around the green are very much in play.  The 2 on the left side right before the cliff collect most balls that run out in that direction.  The one on the right will catch any ball hit hard just right of the green.  
On #12 the bunker in the middle of the layup area makes that hole what it is imo.  Also the bunker short of the green sees some action into the wind and I have seen many balls hit into the 2 fairway bunkers to the left of the driving area when the black tee is on the bottom left.  
On #13 the bunkers on the right are very much in play for anyone hitting too much of a fade or bailing out away from the cliff.  The greenside bunker on the right also sees alot of balls for the same reasons.  
#14 the bunker to the right of the green is deep and nasty and any ball fading that lands on the right side of the green will end up in there.  The one on the left side of the green also sees alot of action.
On #15 the 2 bunkers in the layup area make the hole what it is and catch many mishit layup attempts.  
On #16 the bunker behind the green to the left is nasty and catches any shot that is running out too much.  Good luck getting up and down from there as the green is hard, small and sloping away from you with a big falloff awaiting any shot hit even a little too hard.
On #17 the short right bunker catches any shot that lands short and too far left.  If you are far enough right it will bound onto the green.  
On #18 the fairway bunkers on the left of the landing area will catch any ball hit in that direction.  
Also the bunkers long and on the left side of the green also catch alot of balls hit that are running out too much.  Interestingly I have only seen 1 or 2 balls ever hit into the bunker short and right of the green.  

[Michael Dugger]

I think it is also important to note that PD has some legitimate forced carries BD does not.  A topped shot/worm burner/duff at Bandon Dunes hurts a player off the tee on #2, #3 and #15, (which really has zero bail out room) and #16, though clearing the chasm isn't all that tough in low wind conditions.  The approach into the bottleneck on #5 is pretty narrow, that is a very demanding shot.

#4, #7 and #8 really are quite playable to the duffer.  I've seen some pretty crappy shots found to be playable.  

You could play #1, #5, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13, #14, #17 and #18 with a putter, conceivably.

At PD, however, gunk absolutely must be cleared on #2.  #3 demands a longer carry than one might think.  It's easy to find long grass on #5.  Even a well hit shot to the wrong place in the fairway screws a guy on #6.  The approach to #7 must be exact, trouble is EVERYWHERE.  The wall of death on #9 is as intimidating obstacle as I have ever encountered in my years golfing.  #11 is a short hole, granted, but also devilish, a la #7 at Pebble.  

The approach into the 13th is only as wide as the fairway.  The fall off in every direction of #14 makes it very exacting.  The approach to #16 is downright scary.  A whole lot of gunk has to be cleared on #17 to find a safe place.

As a decent but not superb golfer, I breath a sigh of relief if I managed to clear the sandy gunk on the third tee at Bandon.  I know there isn't a whole lot of "that kind" of trouble lurking elsewhere.  Bandon Dunes is simply more relaxing.  I take the rick shaw, I know most decently hit balls will be found and I might even throw up a round in the 80's if I am workin' it.  (It'd be an 89 of course!)

The threat of impending doom last all 18 holes at Pacific.  Even when I could putt up the 1st or 4th fairway, it's damn narrow.  #8 and #12 are just about the only holes where I feel like I can relax a bit.

Everywhere else has the potential for a snowman written all over it.  My 7 handicap buddy 6 putted the 11th green one day.  I know a guy who parred every hole one round, except for #15, where he went up and down the steep greenside embankment on his way to a 13!

I've been playing great golf there before, a few over on the back nine, only to finish triple triple....  

You just don't see rounds melt away at Bandon like you do Pacific.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike I strongly disagree with the better player putting Bandon Dunes over Pacific Dunes. I think it is the other way around with enough separation there is really not a debate. Architects and Course contruction professionals will quickly note the rookie blunders made at Bandon Dunes in the drainage, routing etc. Some of these have been corrected but significant work is needed at Bandon. I think Bandon has 6 to 7 great holes and 5 or 6 more good ones. Pacific is solid from top to bottom. 3,7,13,16 and 17 are very average holes at Bandon imho

[peter_p]

Tim Bert
      I am of average length from the tee, am a double digit handicapper, use a distance ball and play the course from my correct tees. I do not have any trouble with either the tee shot or the approach on #8, which is why I personally don't value it as a significant value shot.
      If the wind is up one of either #11 or #14 gains in value.
#9 has a high value for me on the tee shot because I barely get enough carry to reach the upper level, it doesn't for the better player. I have teed off on the hole with a 9 iron.

[Tim Pitner]

I think Bandon has 6 to 7 great holes and 5 or 6 more good ones. Pacific is solid from top to bottom. 3,7,13,16 and 17 are very average holes at Bandon imho

"Shot values" strikes me as a term that can mean whatever a person wants it to mean.  I know Golf Digest defines it, but I see a lot left open for interpretation.

I like Bandon Dunes #7 quite a bit--it's not average at all in my book.  BD #16 is a "love it or hate it" hole--hard to say it's average, per se.  I do agree that #3 and #13 are rather mundane.  #17 is interesting but, in my opinion, perhaps the worst designed hole at the resort--there's just nowhere to put your tee shot.  

[Tom_Doak]

"Shot Values" is the least understood category in the GOLF DIGEST ranking system.

And it's the only one whose value is doubled in the final tally!

[John Kirk]

Mike I strongly disagree with the better player putting Bandon Dunes over Pacific Dunes... 3,7,13,16 and 17 are very average holes at Bandon imho

I should get into this conversation, since I've played both of these courses many times.  I agree with Tiger here.  After a few plays, I began to feel like I could had Bandon Dunes figured out.  A typical summer trip to the resort would be 4 rounds at Pacific and 1 at Bandon, and I usually succeeded in playing Bandon Dunes at close to par.  Pacific places a little more importance on each shot; indifferent shots more often lead to bogey.  Generally, it's harder to get up and down around the greens there.  My average score at Bandon Dunes, over the last 10 rounds each, is probably 2-3 strokes lower.

I'd like to mention that Bandon Dunes is terrific when the wind blows, because it gives you the room you need.  Huge golf course.

With respect to shot values, I still don't understand how anybody can assign a number to this category without playing the course a few times.  If I were a rater, I would take note of how fun and challenging the shots I faced that day, and score the course accordingly.  But what happens if you're playing one of America's great, but tough, championship coourses, and you spend the whole day wedging out of rough into wedge position on par 4s?  How do you justify a high shot value ranking without experiencing the possible shots?

[Tom Huckaby]

Jason:

I'd say Trails is on a par with BD... that is, damn good, but a tiny bit below Pacific.

John Kirk:

Hopefully us rankers can user our imaginations and whatever smarts we have, not having to rely on just the shots we've played - that's how we'd assess shot values.  

JB:

I know you and I have always disagreed on this, but my recent trip up there just confirmed my take - I continue to like BD a lot.  The ten rounds still go 3-3-3 and one left to chance for me.  BTW, you've often commented on one of teh amateur architect mistakes at BD being as one plays the par 5 13th one thinks the 17th green is the green he's playing too.. that is the visual is all at that green, not the real 13th... and perhaps that's a valid criticism.  But if so, well Doak gets the same... The same effect happens on a hole there... I think it's 12, looking at 3 off in the distance.  We noticed this when we were up there last time.  Doak's no amateur, is he?  

[Joe Bentham]

Joe:

I am a "ranker", as is Jim Franklin (and several other regulars here).

I don't think any of us are particularly clueless, but of course that's open for debate.  

In any case, having played each course several times - most recently about 6 weeks ago - I have to say I disagree with your assessment.  I have them most definitely pretty close in shot values, using the exact definition I posted.  I found a lot of challenge and variety at Bandon.  I did put Pacific a little higher for sure, but they were most definitely in the same neighborhood.

To each his own....

TH

Never called anyone clueless Huck....But like many of the arguments about Bandon on here you think your the experts.  I see the place every day, have for the last 5 years....