Seeking Greatness in Florida

[Bill Gayne]

I don't know everyone's definition of great but to me the definition of great is somthing on the Doak scale of about a ten. Being defined as "Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something woth seeing. If you haven't seen all the courses in this category, you don't know how good golf architecture can get."

Nines are "outstanding courses"
Eights are "one of the best in the region"
Sevens are "excellent"
Sixes are "very good"
Fives are "well above average"

From the courses mentioned so far that I've seen are mostly fives and maybe sixes. I haven't seen Seminole or Indian Creek so there might not be any greatness in Florida or if there is any it's hard to find.

[Guy Phelan]

I don't know everyone's definition of great but to me the definition of great is somthing on the Doak scale of about a ten. Being defined as "Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something woth seeing. If you haven't seen all the courses in this category, you don't know how good golf architecture can get."

Nines are "outstanding courses"
Eights are "one of the best in the region"
Sevens are "excellent"
Sixes are "very good"
Fives are "well above average"

From the courses mentioned so far that I've seen are mostly fives and maybe sixes. I haven't seen Seminole or Indian Creek so there might not be any greatness in Florida or if there is any it's hard to find.

Bill,

It appears that most of us agree that Tom Doak's scale is one that displays merit. I have been fortunate enough to play many of the courses that have made this list. And granted there is not much “greatness.”  

When I began the thread, I was looking for one of us to find a course that demonstrates “greatness” in Florida and tell us why. Maybe all we have accomplished here is nothing more than a list of courses that many GCA members think are “very good” or maybe even have attained “greatness” status.

“Greatness” for me begins with Dornoch, out of the USA and Merion within. After that, every course I play or just seen is set against those two benchmarks. Pretty stiff benchmarks!

Each of us have our own methodologies for determining “greatness”; however, most of us will be able to, given a list narrow down what we believe to be great.

Florida has always intrigued me because I have often believed that you should be able to present many “treasures” throughout this very large and golf rich state. As mentioned, I have been fortunate to have played many golf courses in Florida and I would have to say that I place three above all the rest: Seminole, Indian Creek and Mountain Lake. There are others that are on a second tier below: Pine Tree – Maybe the toughest test in Florida, Gulf Stream, Jupiter Hills and Johns Island – West. After that it is a list of other courses.

I would hope that maybe the GCA and its visitors have come up with a “great” list of courses to play for the balance of the winter, either physically or in our minds. I yearn for the day when I see something besides 9 degrees on the thermostat! I will leave tomorrow for Florida and play in the warmth and try to seek greatness again!

All the best,
Guy

Admirals Cove
Black Diamond
Boca Rio
Calusa Pines
Doral – Blue Monster
Dye Preserve
Fernandria Beach
Gulf Stream
Hideout
Indian Creek
Innisbrook – Copperhead
Isleworth
Johns Island – West
Jupiter Hills
Lakerita
loblolly Pines
Loxahatchee
Majors Golf Club
McArthur
Mission Inn
Mountain Lake
Myacoo Lakes
Old Marsh
Old Memorial
Pensacola CC
Pine Tree
Seminole
Sharks Tooth
Southern Dunes
The Bear’s Club
The Championship at PGA
The Concession
The Medalist
Timaquaner
TPC – Sawgrass
Victoria Hills
World Woods – Pine Barrons
World Woods - Rolling Oaks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Guy,

It's Timaquana

[SPDB]

Pat -

Shame on you. It's Timuquana.

Speaking of which, what were your impressions of the course from the Senior Am? I can't recall if it was pre or post Weed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

The 2002 Senior Am was after the Bobby Weed project.

I was surprised by a few things.

First, how far removed from the Ocean the golf course was.
Second, how it was cut out of a forest, totally unlike most courses in South Florida.
Third, how Ross chose or was forced to work inland with none of the holes on the river.  My guess is that the clubhouse was sitused on the river for a variety of reasons, with the golf course layed out on the land south of the clubhouse.
I seem to recall seeing an old schematic which showed some holes closer to or on the water.
Fourth, that wind didn't seem to be that much of a factor.
That could have been due to the weather in the week I was there, but, I think the tall trees block a good deal of the wind on the golf course.

It was a nice, sporty, members course.
It was in very good condition.
Not much about Ross jumps out at you, most likely because of the flat terrain.
The green contours were interesting and it appeared that they tried to insert or restore chipping areas with closely mown areas around some of the greens.

It had a distinctly different feel from golf courses in South Florida.

[Jay Flemma]

Public I simply got 1) sawgrass, 2) world woods, 3) PGA dye course.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Yes, I was at the show -- If I had to spend time in Florida I figured staying at the show was better than going to many of the so-called "golf" courses in the immediate region.

Sorry we could not hook up at the show.

Mike S:

Thanks -- I tried to play Lederach this winter season but was told one round from me was enough.

[Chris Neff]

Hello Pat!
First off Thank You for the nice compliments about the condition of the 2002 Senior Am and course in general. I wish the rain would've been none existent that week, we really had it firm leading up to the event.  I wanted to add some comments about the course that you had already spoke about.  First, Bobby Weed did a tremendous job bringing the green complexes back to their original flavor.  It really means alot to the golf course playability because like you said the golf course is very flat with no terrain.  If you could see aerial photos from early days the golf course had hardly no trees to speak of. They had some palms, oaks, and pines that still exist but it was fairly open.  When Hurricane Dora hit J-ville in the 60's the membership planted a lot of the pinetrees that gives Timuquana that treeline feel today.  After the 2002 Senior AM I sold the Green Committee on a tree removal plan that would involve a long term commitment of strategically removing unwanted trees that cause poor sun and air quality. I won the sell and we are in our third year of the program and the golf course is loving it. Some of the membership gave me some flack about it but the ones that gave me flack agree that the golf course is better for it.  So now wind plays a little more of a factor because of the openness between the holes and the property in general.  Today the wind was 10-15mph and you could feel it pretty good and you definetly thought about your shot selection depending on were you where on the golf course.  Along with this we our now topdressing fairways twice a year to create the firm fast conditions that should be expected on that design feature.We are presently preparing for a future renovation to continue preserving what Donald Ross and Bobby Weed created. The golf course will remain the same except for maybe a few add on tees to add some distance but not much. The plan is to regrass greens and tees with upgrading irrigation and bunkersand. The major focus may come with a new and improved practice facility that is much needed. It is a very unique piece of property with no houses on the course and with a clubhouse that has awesome views of the river and downtown. They have done a great job keeping the property special. Thanks again for the props and talk to you later.

Chris Neff
Golf Course Superintendent
Timuquana CC    

[Guy Phelan]

Hello Pat!
First off Thank You for the nice compliments about the condition of the 2002 Senior Am and course in general. I wish the rain would've been none existent that week, we really had it firm leading up to the event.  I wanted to add some comments about the course that you had already spoke about.  First, Bobby Weed did a tremendous job bringing the green complexes back to their original flavor.  It really means alot to the golf course playability because like you said the golf course is very flat with no terrain.  If you could see aerial photos from early days the golf course had hardly no trees to speak of. They had some palms, oaks, and pines that still exist but it was fairly open.  When Hurricane Dora hit J-ville in the 60's the membership planted a lot of the pinetrees that gives Timuquana that treeline feel today.  After the 2002 Senior AM I sold the Green Committee on a tree removal plan that would involve a long term commitment of strategically removing unwanted trees that cause poor sun and air quality. I won the sell and we are in our third year of the program and the golf course is loving it. Some of the membership gave me some flack about it but the ones that gave me flack agree that the golf course is better for it.  So now wind plays a little more of a factor because of the openness between the holes and the property in general.  Today the wind was 10-15mph and you could feel it pretty good and you definetly thought about your shot selection depending on were you where on the golf course.  Along with this we our now topdressing fairways twice a year to create the firm fast conditions that should be expected on that design feature.We are presently preparing for a future renovation to continue preserving what Donald Ross and Bobby Weed created. The golf course will remain the same except for maybe a few add on tees to add some distance but not much. The plan is to regrass greens and tees with upgrading irrigation and bunkersand. The major focus may come with a new and improved practice facility that is much needed. It is a very unique piece of property with no houses on the course and with a clubhouse that has awesome views of the river and downtown. They have done a great job keeping the property special. Thanks again for the props and talk to you later.

Chris Neff
Golf Course Superintendent
Timuquana CC    

Chris,

It is a real pleasure to have you comment on this treasure called Timuquana! If you have a run down of the holes that would be great and if you could let us know which holes will be lengthened. When the greeens are regrasssed what type of grass will be used? Tees also? It sounds as if you have a good home and I am excited for you!

All the best,
Guy

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Neff,

I sent you an IM..

I think most of the competitors found the golf course a little confining in areas, and, turf quality has to suffer when you have the fairways lined with tall trees, so, a prudent tree management program will enhance the golf course and the playing experience.

I don't know of a golf course that hasn't added length to their tees.  I think you have to if you want to retain the intended DZ and keep the approach shot as close to intended as possible.

The clubhouse, patio and pool location are spectacular, and all of the staff and members at Timuquana were terrific, we had a great time.

I was hitting the ball fairly well, but, on the first day of medal play I developed a bad habit of rolling my take-away inside thus contacting the ball in the heel with my irons.  It was a surprise to me and resulted in some poor rounds.  Strangely, I didn't do it on my driver or 3-wood.  But, it cost me dearly.
I was really annoyed because I had been striking the ball so well,   BUT, THAT'S GOLF.  And, that should be the worst thing that happens to me.

In retrospect, I might have stayed on the practice range too long.

Good luck with your projects, and if I'm in your neck of the woods I'll stop by and see you.

[Thomas_Brown]

Mountain Lake is great - no qualifiers, no diminishing the course saying it's less than 7000 yards.

I played 36 holes & 45 holes in 2 days with Baltimore's 2nd biggest celeb(Ripken still #1, right?) and found it to be a blast.

I understand another prominent GCA.com member made a hole in one on the Biarritz back hole location - that's really something!  That hole location - It was an easy 4 for everyone in our group.

This is 3rd or 4th Raynor course I've played and despite the location, those artificial push up greens and template holes really made it fun.  Reconsidering previous minimalist leanings...

[Guy Phelan]

Mountain Lake is great - no qualifiers, no diminishing the course saying it's less than 7000 yards.

I played 36 holes & 45 holes in 2 days with Baltimore's 2nd biggest celeb(Ripken still #1, right?) and found it to be a blast.

I understand another prominent GCA.com member made a hole in one on the Biarritz back hole location - that's really something!  That hole location - It was an easy 4 for everyone in our group.

This is 3rd or 4th Raynor course I've played and despite the location, those artificial push up greens and template holes really made it fun.  Reconsidering previous minimalist leanings...

Cal is still "The Man" in Baltimore and I believe he will be one of "The Men" for ever, including Johnny Unitas and Brooks Robinson.

I did not here that another GCAer aced the 5th at ML. I played it 4 times and fortunately was only 3 over par.

The location while remote is really not that difficult to get to from Orlando; I do not know about Tampa, but I have heard it is similar.

Those architects that had their templates really knew how to use them. Tillinghast was another who used his templates and crafted unique and memorable holes.

Who made the Ace?

[Bill_McBride]

I believe there was a report that John "Tiger" Bernhardt aced the Biarritz with the pin on the back tier.  

[Guy Phelan]

Tiger!!!

[Kyle Harris]

....and who put it there?

 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Kyle gets an assist for great cup placement work. It turns out he put the hole where his ball came to rest the evening before while Newman, Scott Wood and I were watching hoops and testing the bourbon supply at ML.

[Guy Phelan]

Kyle gets an assist for great cup placement work. It turns out he put the hole where his ball came to rest the evening before while Newman, Scott Wood and I were watching hoops and testing the bourbon supply at ML.

Tiger,

Congratulations!

I am sure the "testing" was quite adequate to detremine if ML had enough. Whatever the amount, I would suggest that you stick at that volume!

Guy

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Guy, the amount is a tough call. If pleasure of the moment is my goal then more is better. If good golf the next day is in the cards then none is a better amount. I will try to duplicate the feat, both feats this weekend.