Innerleven

[Tom_Doak]

One of the highlights of our trip this week was to explore what was left of the holes at "Leven" which C.B. Macdonald admired a hundred years ago.

For those of you who don't know, back in the old days there was a single 18-hole links course shared between the towns of Leven and Lundin, with clubhouses and starting points at both ends.  Eventually, it became too crowded for that, and James Braid was hired to cut the baby in half and add new holes up the hill to complete two new 18's.

These new upper holes are for the most part not very inspired, so neither course today has much cachet.  However, the original 18 holes must have been one of the best courses in Scotland, and now it's easy to see how Macdonald could have rated it so highly.

I will get into more detail later about the individual holes but the one note I'll make now is that I believe Macdonald used the 17th hole at Lundin Links (the old 8th at Leven) as the model for the 16th at National, and never told anybody about it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Interesting, very interesting! That one I never saw before.

Now what do you think about the 10th at Lundin being somewhat of a take on #17 @ NGLA? (certain features like the placement of that bunker with the hill in it.) The holes don't look similar, but there seemed to me to be a certain familiarity.

Now that you've seen Lundin more intricately, does it get a different grade in the CGOGC?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have only looked at these courses and have always regreted not playing them. I look forward to your discussion.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
The closing holes at Lundin are probably as strong as a finish as one could hope for. They're excellent holes, even though they are somewhat evolved in a different direction then one would hope for.

I love the place.

Even better, get out that copy of British Golf Links and see some of the Innerleven and Lundin holes. There is some amazing golf there.

[Rich Goodale]

Agreed Tom, even though the Lundy green is anything but a punchbowl and thus makes any play from the right fairway depression much harder than the shot to the 16th green at NGLA.

[Peter Pallotta]

"....I believe Macdonald used the 17th hole at Lundin Links (the old 8th at Leven) as the model for the 16th at National, and never told anybody about it."

Tom D
I was just reading an article from "The American Golfer" from August, 1910 about a tournament marking the opening of the National Golf Links; and when I read the following it reminded me of your thread from a few days ago, so I thought I'd post these quotes, fyi. I don't know enough to know if they're even relevant, but thought that you, Tommy, etc would.    
Peter  
 
"...Everyone was loud in their praise of the course as a whole, with the exception, perhaps, of the sixteenth hole, which did not play as well as was anticipated. It is probable that some changes will be made in this particular hole. [By the way, the 16th played 456 yds]....Speaking as a whole, the holes are well bunkered at present, but the experience gained during the recent meeting has already suggested where a number of bunkers may be advantageously put in.
Outside the sixteenth, which is supposed to be a duplication of the seventeenth at St. Andrews, but which really falls far short of being so in many essentials, there is not a weak hole in the entire round."

"...Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald, who conceived the idea of building the course, contenting himself with reproducing, as far as the physical attributes permit, the most famous holes abroad -- holes which are recognized as being thoroughly first class. St. Andrews, Sandwich, Prestwick, North Berwick, Leven, Brancaster, Sunningdale, in short, the whole kingdom of golf, has been drawn upon, and the result is a superb aggregation -- absolutely unique."

[George_Bahto]

Peter, when that article was written the writer was referencing the holes in their original order before the nines were reversed.

Their original clubhouse was to be the Old Shinnecock Inn behind the present 10th tee (then the first hole) and when it burned down CB decided to build a new clubhouse where it is presently located and reverse the nines.

I personally like playing the course in the old rotation.

so...... in that article - first paragraph: ""...Everyone was loud in their praise of the course as a whole, with the exception, perhaps, of the sixteenth hole, which did not play as well as was anticipated. It is probable that some changes will be made in this particular hole. [By the way, the 16th played 456 yds]....Speaking as a whole, the holes are well bunkered at present, but the experience gained during the recent meeting has already suggested where a number of bunkers may be advantageously put in.
Outside the sixteenth, which is supposed to be a duplication of the seventeenth at St. Andrews, but which really falls far short of being so in many essentials, there is not a weak hole in the entire round."
.... he is referring to the old 16th, now the present 7th, the Road hole

BTW: I don't what he was thinking about - that the Road hole was the weaker hole on the course


the feature we saw on the Lundin 17th (2 deeps bowls left and right in the drive zone) reference the two deep bowls left and right of the landing area on the present 16th NGLA, the Punchbowl.  Macdonald just made them bigger and deeper.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm trying to think back on my round at Lundin Links two weeks ago and figure out if one of the holes on the 'modern' Lundin was the inspiration for the Leven hole #17 at NGLA.  I can't really think of one that embodies all the strategic options and tactical decisons to be made standing on that elevated tee.  Is there a hole on the 'modern' Leven Links that was MacDonald's inspiration?

[George_Bahto]

Bill, there is  large mound feature on 16 Lundin (originally 7 Leven) that is short left of the green,

There is a long large mound followed by a small one preceding the green.

It doesn't look like the "sand hill" at NGLA's 17th but the basic strategy is that the "mound" (or some other visual obstruction) obfuscates a portion of the approach to the green if you are approaching from the "wrong" side.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, there is  large mound feature on 16 Lundin (originally 7 Leven) that is short left of the green,

There is a long large mound followed by a small one preceding the green.

It doesn't look like the "sand hill" at NGLA's 17th but the basic strategy is that the "mound" (or some other visual obstruction) obfuscates a portion of the approach to the green if you are approaching from the "wrong" side.

So the idea is you have to steer pretty closely to that hazard down the right side to get a clear look at the green.  That works.  At NGLA you have to hit a long way for a clear look.  At Lundin (old Leven) you have to hit out toward the hazard to earn a clear look.

Good stuff, George, thanks for the photo.

[Marty Bonnar]

Small aside to broadcast the practically ridiculous notion that golf in Scotland/Fife is presently so undersubscribed.

The Leven Golfing Society (playing over the adjacent 'half the original' course) are currently so desperate for new members that they have introduced a £25 joining fee, £370 yearly subs and all with NO WAITING LIST.

http://www.levengolfingsociety.co.uk/joinlgs.htm

Only ten years or so ago you couldn't have bought an LGS membership for love nor money (or at least until maybe fifty old buffers had gone to the great golf course in the sky).

How times change...

FBD.

[Tom_Doak]

Martin:

That's amazing to me.  But we did have lunch at the clubhouse there and I wonder if it's an age thing ... there weren't too many younger members about.

The all-time example of that was The Links Golf Club on Long Island, NY.  The members went years without admitting any new blood, and eventually they started dying off.  At the end there were 13 members and the real estate was worth $13 million ... goodbye Macdonald course, hello housing development.

[Peter Pallotta]

"Peter, when that article was written the writer was referencing the holes in their original order before the nines were reversed."

George B - thanks for that, and for the rest of your post. I might've imagined it was something like that.

Btw, it seems like several great courses reversed their nines pretty early on. It's interesting to think about that: all the design-thinking-and-intent that was behind (originally) making the first hole the first hole, and then how that thinking was revised or discarded to (later) make the first hole the ninth....but maybe I'm misuderstanding the process

Peter  

[Troy Alderson]

Tom,

From an overhead aerial, the original course looks complete.  If the course is as great as CB says then maybe a composite course could hold the Open.

Troy