[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

   Your earlier post to everyone on this thread was spot on! I completely agree with you (see, I said it!!) on Maidstone. It's a near 10 in some spots (8, 9  and 14) and wonderful in others but a few of the holes really fall short for quality. I haven't played Whippoorwill since I was a teenager, but what I do remember was very interesting and the "bones" were there.  

 Pat,

  Both you and Matt need to play Neshanic again. It may have been tad too early when you first saw it, but the Meadow and Ridge nines are really terrific examples of fine public golf, and to Matt's earlier point, the depth of NJ public links. Anytime either of you want to tee it up there, let me know. I play it regularly and welcome the chance to guide you around.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve L:

I've played Neshanic a number of times -- I might be able to "guide" you around. It's a fine public course and certainly Someret County folks should be proud to have this as their flagship course.

I'm eager to see how the layout fares as host to the MGA Public Links event. I may even try to qualify and play in it.

However ...

It does not SNIFF the top 25 in New Jersey overall or even a top 30 or 35. The depth of a number of under-the-radar private clubs in NJ is more than what many "raters" may realize -- let alone know.

When you see what Digest rated ahead of Essex County and Forsgate, to name just two private courses of distinction, than you know people are simply throwing votes to the new kids on the block. Due diligence is clearly not a big focus on the part of Digest raters this time around.

The same can be said of New York and I simply fall off the chair with uncontrollable laughter when I see a public course like Olde Stonewall in Pennsy reached the top ten in the Keystone State. There are a host of other such silly inclusions.

[John Foley]

Steve - No I agree that while Branton Woods is first rtate, breaking into the top 25 would be very difficult. It is a course that given the variety & routing is enjoyabl;e to play day in & day out.

JNC - Have not seen CCR since the Hanse redo. Was it anything more than a clean up of the bunkers & greens? Any major changes? I really like the intamacy of the routing at Monroe.

Given the strength of #'s 1-10, how does a new course crack that line up is Friars Head & Sebonack don't?

[Steve Lapper]

Steve L:

I've played Neshanic a number of times -- I might be able to "guide" you around. It's a fine public course and certainly Someret County folks should be proud to have this as their flagship course.

I'm eager to see how the layout fares as host to the MGA Public Links event. I may even try to qualify and play in it.

However ...

It does not SNIFF the top 25 in New Jersey overall or even a top 30 or 35. The depth of a number of under-the-radar private clubs in NJ is more than what many "raters" may realize -- let alone know.

When you see what Digest rated ahead of Essex County and Forsgate, to name just two private courses of distinction, than you know people are simply throwing votes to the new kids on the block. Due diligence is clearly not a big focus on the part of Digest raters this time around.

The same can be said of New York and I simply fall off the chair with uncontrollable laughter when I see a public course like Olde Stonewall in Pennsy reached the top ten in the Keystone State. There are a host of other such silly inclusions.

Matt,

    I don't disagree that it doesn't belong in NJ's top 25 (pvt. and public). No question it is rightfully behind ACCC, Ballyowen, Hominy Hill, Twisted Dune, Pine Barrens and maybe Sand Barrens and the old Blue Heron East. However, IMHO, it's above Royce Brook East, Shore Gate, Crystal complex, Architects McCulloughs, etc... I wish you luck in the public links qualification. I played last year with Kevin Foley. Watched him shoot a 65 from the tips and if he comes back, he'll dominate that course, even with some of the stiff local competition.

I 100% agree with you that the GD rater cretins missed the state's great Banks designs at EC and Forsgate. Too bad, playing both might have opened up their minds somewhat.

Happy, for once, to be chiming in to support your posts!

[JNC Lyon]

Philip Young:
I appreciate your joke about global warming, I just didn't get it initially.  Sorry

[JNC Lyon]

John Foley, Matt Ward, et. al.

   CC of Rochester in the last two years is totally different from its previous state.  Before, it was a very average Donald Ross layout with several missing parts, very disjointed, not too exciting.  Gil Hanse took out many trees, including a huge grove of pines left of the third hole.  The 3rd is an example of how the restoration has improved the course.  Before, it was a short, uphill par four with one fairway bunker on the outside of the dogleg left.  The left side was guarded by a thick stand of pines and other puffy trees from which there was no return.  

     This has been entirely cleared out saved for one oak, replaced by light rough and fescue.  There are now two bunkers cut into the hillside, one just left of the fairway, one smack in the middle requiring about a 250 carry from the tips.  The greenside bunkers were redone and effectively improved.  The hole was formerly penal, but it is now a highly strategic par four at only 330 from the tips.  It is one of the very best short fours in Upstate New York, if not THE best.

    Hanse added many old cross bunkers found in old photos with the aid of Paul Wold and other knowledgeable members.  Many trees have been removed to nearly unanimous support.  The RTJ and Arthur Hills bunkering has been completely removed or redone.  5,6, and 7, all RTJ holes, have been completely renovated to provide easier ground access to greens with cool runoff areas.

    Hanse is continuing to oversee activity at the club, including the proposed movement of the 18th green back towards the clubhouse, away from the current Arthur Hills green, which is currently the worst green on the course.

    Check out Mike Miller's paintings of CCR in the "Art and Architecture" section of the website, most of which are accurate for today with the exception of some further tree removal (notably on 3).  It gives a good idea of the quality of Hanse's work here.  It very much explains the course's movement onto the top 30 courses in the state.

    While I like Monroe a lot, CCR's restoration makes it one of the top three courses in the area with the two Oak Hill Courses.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC Lyon:

Thanks for the info update.

However, keep this in mind. Just because "improvements" have happened the bar for courses in the immediate NYC metro area is incredibly high because of the sheer depth and diversity.

As I said before - you can take the courses from just Westchester County alone and that would be sufficient to beat at least half of the states in the USA without breaking much of a sweat.

Now given what I just said -- there are also a number of "rated" courses in the NYC metro area that I personally believe get high marks because of past success and listing.

There are also a few other courses that fall below the Digest rating radar (e.g. Fenway, etc, etc) that are truly exceptional and to have them excluded speaks more to the ignorance / stupidity of the ratings panel than anything else.

Next time I'm in the area I'll be sure to check out CC of Rochester and Buffalo.

[Dan Herrmann]

Good thread on Upstate courses:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23270;start=msg425928#msg425928

[JNC Lyon]

Dan, thanks for the link.

I believe Scott Witter is incorrect about the bunkering at CCB.  I too thought the renovation was inaccurate for Ross's style of bunkering, but old photos in the halfway house show the bunkering much like it is now.  As many know, Ross's bunkering was not the same at every course, and this seems to be the case at Country Club of Buffalo.

In order, my upstate Ross courses (of the ones I've played) would go:

Oak Hill (East) (just awesome despite some loss of Ross)
CC of Rochester (restoration/renovation puts new life into this one)
Oak Hill (West) (hidden gem that was ranked previously, best Ross greens anywhere notably 1-4, 6, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17)
CC of Buffalo (quarry holes make this one totally unique, with a couple bland holes enhanced by heavy bunkering)
Teugega (a couple weak holes here and there with some unnecessary water features, but all of Ross is there)
Monroe (proposed restoration should make this one great)
Brook Lea (underrated gem with some great par threes)
Mark Twain (see above, but with fewer Ross bunkers)

This is in terms of overall course quality rather than faithfulness to Ross features.  The most genuine Ross courses are, in order:

Teugega (lose the trees, bring back the sand in some of the grass bunkers and you've got the best course in Upstate NY)
CC of Buffalo (different from other Ross courses, but very genuine except for the pond on 17)
CC of Rochester (still has 5 non-Ross greens, but bunkering is very original)
Oak Hill (West) (lots of trees and lost bunkers, but 17 original greens make this one awesome)
Monroe (15 original greens, but bunkers are still shaggy and too many pine trees)
Brook Lea (great sets of greens and short holes, but some bland holes and a couple ponds bring this down a bit).
Oak Hill (East) (routing and greens mostly intact except for Fazio holes, creating the genius of most of the course)
Mark Twain (many lost bunkers + a non-original water feature, but great for a muny)

[Matt_Ward]

JNC Lyon:

I have to say this again -- Oak Hill / East gets plenty of ink but for me it's the Baltusrol / Lower of upstate New York.

There's way too many trees for my tastes and much of the course is really devoid of any architectural compelling items. As an example, I have never been a fan of the long par-5 13th -- the one which itemizes all the various champs on the trees surrounding the putting surface. The creek area forces the driver out of your hands and the rest of it is simply a pedestrian climb to the putting surface.

The only real hole of note I do like is the short uphill par-4 14th -- which really has not been changed and is frankly a very compelling and thoughtful hole.

I also think that all the fanfare that Hogan gave to the starting hole is also overblown. When you see the likes of the 1st at Winged Foot / West or even the 1st at Shinnecock I fail to see how Oak Hill / East is considered an architectural marvel.

The only saving grace is the amount of golf fans in and around the area of Rochester. They are truly passionate about the game and demonstrate that with each big time event that comes to the area.

I've played all the other layouts you mentioned -- in total disclosure -- some of them have been from years ago. I'll be swinging through the area this year to play a few of the newer courses -- be curious to your take on the two noted public courses in the Verona area - Shenendoah & Atunyote.

Thanks ...

P.S. Like I said before -- Westchester alone has a roster of layouts that are rock solid in so many ways and often people only think of the county having the likes of Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt Ward:

I have yet to play the courses at Turning Stone but have heard different takes on them from everybody.

The 13th is an excellent par-five.  The creek takes the driver out of the hands of only the long hitter from all the way back.  the strategy comes in trying to get as close as possible to the creek so that one can negotiate the bunkers on the right hillside more easily.  I would disagree that the climb on the second shot is pedestrian, for the second shot's tradeoffs between gambling over the bunkers on the right and laying it out behind the trees on the left make for some excitement.  The routing of the hole is in unmatched for an uphill hole.  I agree, the Hill of Fame concept is overblown, but the bowl in which the green is set is not.  The green itself is fantastic, either very severe or very difficult to read depending on the hole location.  Maybe not the best hole on the course, but certainly great nonetheless.

I agree with you on the 14th, its green complex is second to none and make this hole harder than any other of its length in the area.

The starting hole showcases the classic Ross routing from the hill of the clubhouse, flowing gently down to the creek, but with the green properly removed from the water's edge. The tee shot challenges you to hit a hard draw around the oaks on the left, but a conservative three-wood may result in an easier par.  A perfect start to the course, but certainly not, as Hogan said, the hardest first hole in the world.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC Lyon:

Thanks for the update & comments.

Oak Hill / East for me is a puzzling layout. While I salute the member's enthusiasm in hosting big time events and the fans in the greater area take a big seat to no one -- the quality of the East just doesn't ring a bell that says "wow."

I concur that the course will test players to play at a high level but I don't find the architecture there to be of the highest order -- certainly not granting the layout the continuous position it receives among the top 30-40 courses in the USA.

Yes, the 14th is a gem -- but the 15th is completely out of character for the course. The green being shifted years back is more of modern touch that flies in the face of what you encounter before then.

The last three holes are indeed tough but I am totally mystified with the desire to destroy the old 18th green and shift it upwards a number of yards so that the immediate hillside is now in play. I played the previous hole and the new one -- I prefer the original better.

P.S. Thanks for the updates on both CC of Rochester and Buffalo. I've played both previously and need to return and see them through a more updated prism.

One other question -- have you played Cobblestone Creeek recently? I have heard that the housing has diminished the nature of the character of the property and its relationship with the course. Your comments would be most welcomed.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt Ward:

I agree with you on your points about 15 and 18.  I dislike both of those greens, especially 15.  18 would actually be tougher with the green in its original location, being that the hole would now be 520 from the tips.  The best parts about the layout are:
The driving test, which is strong on every hole, made possible by Ross's great routing.

The greens, which, except for the Fazio holes, showcase Ross at his best.  From the triangular plateau of the ninth green to the low-lying double-plateau at the seventh, to the crown of the tenth, the greens are varied, difficult, and fun.

Re: Cobblestone Creek, I have played there twice over the last couple of years, and I am a big fan of the course.  The housing and long walks are certainly negatives, but they are far removed for the course, making it difficult for out of bounds to come into play.  The course always plays firm and fast, and the greens are first-rate.  The short and quirky front nine is an excellent complement to the long and honest back nine.  I believe the fescue has been moved back from the fairways much over the years, but is still in play for the wayward driver.  Key holes: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 13, 16, 18.  For me, this is the best non-Ross course in the area.

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