[George Pazin]

Do people actually not play in from a match that's been closed out?

[THuckaby2]

George - they almost always do in the match play stuff I do.  Who's gonna quit when they've paid for the round?

And Rich - I shall leave this to the Senior Doyen to explain, as he is far more eloquent at this than I am, that's for sure.  Just remember the idea is an improvement on our current system - not a panacea for all handicap issues - as such does not exist.  Handicaps can and will be abused by those who want to do so - here, there, everywhere.

Tom P's idea to me is a just a good start at removing the American idea that every round must consist of 18 completed holes, which leads to slow play, emphasis on "fairness", etc.  We need SOMETHING, that's for sure.  And the answer isn't competitive gross score only posting - that just plain won't work - people don't play enough competitive rounds and want a handicap to use with their friends.  "Official" handicaps work best, though certainly such can be negotiated, and official is necessary when you don't know the people well enough to just establish an agreed-upon number.

TH

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I'll make this as quick and simple as I can! The difference between aggregate (gross score posting) and individual (hole by hole) is basically the ESC system. Applying ESC or not can make a significant difference in handicaps! By the USGA's own admission ESC has never even reached 40% compliance after 25 years of them trying to get American golfers to do it! Hell they've diluted and changed the ESC numbers and procedures so many times to try to make it simple and up compliance even I can hardly remember what they are now!

If they did hole by hole posting the ESC formula would be imbedded in the software and golfers wouldn't even have to know what it was--just post their gross hole score and the computer would break it down! Trying to figure out now what your adjusted gross score is takes longer than hitting the 18 hole numbers on a computer which really does take about 10 seconds if set up right.

So the entire ESC would become automatic and would never again need to depend on voluntary compliance and understanding. Haven't you noticed in about 99% of American match play rounds once a hole is won by an opponent the other players just keeps grinding away wasting time? Virtually noone knows what the USGA procedure is for calculating your likely score (once a hole is won) so these golfers are doing it just thinking of the necessity of their gross score to post for their handicap! Virtually unnecessary with hole by hole! Just post a shot or two higher than whoever won the hole, at least, and it would never be much different than what the ESC formula (imbedded in the software) would break it down to for that hole anyway!

Plus for peer review purposes (something you seem to put some stock in) hole by hole numbers would be much easier to track for sandbagging, cheating, inaccuracies whatever!

Rich:

I thought you already told me that Europe was set up for hole by hole posting anyway--so what's the problem?

[TEPaul]

George:

The USGA is so interested in "quantity posting" that they actually allow you to post an 18 hole (gross score) after playing only 13 holes. What you do with the remaining holes that are unplayed is calculate your score using the your handicap that falls on any of those holes.

With hole by hole posting, again, you could just post 13 hole scores and for the remaining holes not played or posted the formula within the software would automatically do it for you! The overall beauty of hole by hole posting is all that kind of thing such as necessary ESC and unfinished holes would be done AUTOMATICALLY!

With the advances in computerization generally the world of golf handicapping does not need to depend on things like understanding, individual ESC calculation or voluntary compliance anywhere near the degree they have--it's all automatic!

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Toms

You are right about the ESC issue.

Getting back to the topic, what is "fair" or "unfair" for any shot, hole or course, whether match play or stroke play?  Don't all of the competitors have to play over the same piece of ground?

Rich

[THuckaby2]

Rich - I don't do "fair" or "unfair".  I'm with you all the way... we all play the same course.

Unfortunately most US golfers don't feel that way.  Fair to them means a totally different thing.

TH

[Mark Fine]

Dan,
I put the “ “ around fairness only to highlight that Ross used the word in his quote.  You’ll find the quote on page 120 of Shackelford’s “Golden Age of Golf Course Design”.    

A-Clay-Man,
Ross must have been rolling over in his grave seeing his greens at #2 rolling at 11-12 on the stimp.  They were never intended for that speed and that was the only part of the Open set-up that I questioned!

I never use the word unfair in describing a golf hole because there is no such thing, but I do use the words “poorly designed”.  
Mark

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I can't believe my eyes! Are you including me when you titled that last post "Toms"?

Because immediately after the "Toms" you actually said "you are right"!

I'm not a supertitious man but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Chicken Little was right too!

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