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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2007, 05:48:08 PM »
Agreed, but the scenario you describe implies support from the USGA and R&A which is fine, and I would think mandatory for success.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2007, 05:51:04 PM »

Would the same clubs work with a tournament ball?  Or would the pro's need different clubs for a higher-spinning, bigger-bending ball?  

Jim,

I think the answer to your question lies in examining how the situation evolved from 1970 to its present form, and, the reversing of that process.

I don't see any need for different clubs in the context of the relationship between I&B and performance.

Did the drivers everyone used BEFORE the ProV1 perform effectively ?

I think they did.
And, I don't see any need to develop retro-drivers to interface with a "competition" ball.

I'd like to see the head of drivers greatly reduced.
If the USGA hadn't blinked initially, they'd be smaller today and everybody would have lived with that.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2007, 05:52:24 PM »
One characteristic to consider of a lighter ball is that it will drop dead, or at least with noticeably less roll. Especially on chipping/pitching.

Isn't that also what the balata did?

The ones I used for 40+ years certainly seemed to, and I miss that dearly.

K
A 1.5x oz ball would drop and stop significantly quicker than the old balata.

There is no reason every manufacturer couldn't make a version of the "tour" ball. There would just be a different set of specs to meet.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2007, 05:54:58 PM »

Would the same clubs work with a tournament ball?  Or would the pro's need different clubs for a higher-spinning, bigger-bending ball?  

Jim,

I think the answer to your question lies in examining how the situation evolved from 1970 to its present form, and, the reversing of that process.

I don't see any need for different clubs in the context of the relationship between I&B and performance.

Did the drivers everyone used BEFORE the ProV1 perform effectively ?

I think they did.
And, I don't see any need to develop retro-drivers to interface with a "competition" ball.

I'd like to see the head of drivers greatly reduced.
If the USGA hadn't blinked initially, they'd be smaller today and everybody would have lived with that.
Limiting Drivers, and for that matter, all clubs to 43.5" or 44" would help to bring things back in line.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2007, 06:04:13 PM »
Ralph,

I've been an advocate of 43 to 43.5 inch drivers even if I have to abandon my 46 inch model.

I think that would be a step in the right direction even though I would be adversely affected by such a limitation.

But, I think clubhead size has to be reduced as well.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2007, 06:12:54 PM »
Ralph,

I've been an advocate of 43 to 43.5 inch drivers even if I have to abandon my 46 inch model.

I think that would be a step in the right direction even though I would be adversely affected by such a limitation.

But, I think clubhead size has to be reduced as well.

Pat, I wonder if the headsize as a matter of esthetics wouldn't end up being reduced because of the shorter shafts.
A 460cc head at 43" would be pretty weird looking.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2007, 06:18:36 PM »
Ralph,

I think it's a matter of form versus substance.

Remember how ugly Ping Irons looked when they first came out.
But, they were highly effective.

Big heads allow the golfer to swing much harder at the ball with greater margins of error.

The golf swing has been changed due to them.

Going to a smaller head would bring a higher skill set back into driving the ball ....... longer and straighter.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2007, 06:22:06 PM »
Would the same clubs work with a tournament ball?  Or would the pro's need different clubs for a higher-spinning, bigger-bending ball?  

Golf Digest did an interesting study about 15 years ago in which they tested old balatas with persimmon woods and the new Titleist balls of the era with top of the line metal heads then in use.

As I recall, what they found was that the old balatas performed better with the old persimmons than the new balls did. Something about trajectories comes to mind.

It was an interesting example of how technologies tend to evolve in tandem. Balls evolve not independently, but to maximize things with a certain type of head material.

Which I guess is obvious in a way, but still interesting in the sense that a modern ball may not perform much better than a balata ball if you hit them both with a 1975 MacGregor Tourney driver.

Bob  
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 06:23:54 PM by BCrosby »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2007, 06:32:18 PM »
If hickories count, Regular Pro V1 is great with wood heads, Pro V1x is horrible. Of course it was before the creation of the x that I last able to swing over 100mph....
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 06:35:36 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2007, 10:03:40 AM »
Ralph,

Is there a man alive who can swing a hickory at 100 mph+ while keeping the ball in play ?

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2007, 10:08:01 AM »
Ralph,

Is there a man alive who can swing a hickory at 100 mph+ while keeping the ball in play ?

Randy Jensen... Perhaps

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/articles/the-hickory-tiger

His shop in Omaha is one of my favorite stops... he and his brothers have thousands of persimmons in stock.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2007, 10:17:39 AM »
Ken,

It would appear that Randy thinks along the lines that Ralph, myself and others do, when it comes to today's equipment.

However, I doubt that he can swing 80 year old hickories at 100 mph + while keeping the ball in play.

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2007, 10:21:07 AM »
Would the same clubs work with a tournament ball?  Or would the pro's need different clubs for a higher-spinning, bigger-bending ball?  

Golf Digest did an interesting study about 15 years ago in which they tested old balatas with persimmon woods and the new Titleist balls of the era with top of the line metal heads then in use.

As I recall, what they found was that the old balatas performed better with the old persimmons than the new balls did. Something about trajectories comes to mind.

It was an interesting example of how technologies tend to evolve in tandem. Balls evolve not independently, but to maximize things with a certain type of head material.

Which I guess is obvious in a way, but still interesting in the sense that a modern ball may not perform much better than a balata ball if you hit them both with a 1975 MacGregor Tourney driver.

Bob  

I recall Davis Love hitting old clubs for one of his kid's science projects.  It was old club and new ball, but he did talk about the old ball.  He said that the old woods could not generate enough spin with the new ball and they would just nosedive.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/0505/2005/9/3/pga-notebook.html
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 10:22:52 AM by Paul Stephenson »

JohnV

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2007, 10:32:49 AM »
I think bowling is the only sport where the competitor has some control over the specifics of the ball used.  And as far as I know, that may only be limited to the weight, the positions of the holes, and the material used to make the ball.  In addition, each of these is regulated.

Are there other sports besides bowling and golf where the ball is not shared?  I'm feeling dense this morning and can't think of any.

If you are sharing a ball, they all have to be the same.  But, if you aren't, each person can get one that is tailored to his game (within certain limitations.)

Bowling doesn't even have the "one ball" rule.  I've seen guys with different balls for strikes and spares.

JohnV

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2007, 10:35:43 AM »
1. Other tournaments getting in line to draw a "Masters quality" field; i.e., one consisting of players who wanted to use the ball in tournament conditions?  If the Houston tournament tried to replicate conditions (ha ha ha), then why wouldn't some tournament(s) out there be tempted?

Other PGA Tour events don't have the option of having a tournament ball.  With the exception of the majors, the PGA Tour sets the rules for play.  The tour would have to do it, not the individual events.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2007, 11:11:30 AM »
I think bowling is the only sport where the competitor has some control over the specifics of the ball used.  And as far as I know, that may only be limited to the weight, the positions of the holes, and the material used to make the ball.  In addition, each of these is regulated.

Are there other sports besides bowling and golf where the ball is not shared?  I'm feeling dense this morning and can't think of any.

If you are sharing a ball, they all have to be the same.  But, if you aren't, each person can get one that is tailored to his game (within certain limitations.)

Bowling doesn't even have the "one ball" rule.  I've seen guys with different balls for strikes and spares.

John,

Good point about bowling and golf having in common that in each sport the ball is not shared.  (The only exception being foursomes, although this does not weaken your point.)

After some internet searching I could only come up with one other sport in which the ball is not shared, and in this one other sport there are some variances in the ball.  That sport is marbles.

Of course golf is different from bowling and marbles in that the dimensions of the playing area have been adjusted due to changes in the ball.  On the other hand, there are anecdotal reports that bowling has seen its interest among the general public decline due to a belief that the sport has become too easy and is therefore not enough of a challenge to contain one's interest.  The belief is that advances in ball technology have lead to the game becoming easy.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2007, 11:30:03 AM »
[size=8x]
BOCCE

CROQUET
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 ;D

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2007, 11:33:05 AM »
American football used to allow ball substitutions.  Some kickers would soak "their" balls in brine.

BTW, I thought the issue in bowling was with lane waxing.

Rich Goodale

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2007, 11:43:53 AM »
Mark

Vis a vis "lane waxing," I think you are confusing bowling with beach vollyball (distaff version).

In the good ole' days of tennis, each player brought his own balls (within overall specs), and you decided which one to use.  The rich kids always had new balls (of their favored brand) which is why their ball was usually chosen and they usually won (at least that's MY excuse!).

JohnV

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2007, 11:55:39 AM »
American football used to allow ball substitutions.  Some kickers would soak "their" balls in brine.

BTW, I thought the issue in bowling was with lane waxing.

Football still has special balls for kickers.  I've never heard of kickers soaking their balls in brine, sounds like something rugby players might try. ;)

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2007, 12:16:31 PM »
Well done, Farno! Regarding tennis balls, the best part was holding up new balls to further psych you out...

John, some "kicker balls" actually looked more fit for rugby...I thought they banned the practice in the past few years and now kickers must take what they get.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2007, 12:38:18 PM »
Mr. Mucci,
If you make it to MI I would enjoy the opportunity to show you some clubs used by pro's, back in the day. It would be great to have someone of your stature here confirming that much of what is said about equipment from that era is old wives tales and reserved to describing the equipment the 20+ handicapper used.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2007, 01:03:17 PM »
Ken,

It would appear that Randy thinks along the lines that Ralph, myself and others do, when it comes to today's equipment.

However, I doubt that he can swing 80 year old hickories at 100 mph + while keeping the ball in play.

"I think You haven't seen enough hickories. I have a couple that are up in the XX stiff category. The only limiting factor is their torque, which is high.

One in particular, a bulldog utility wood, is so stiff it appears to have been shafted with a broom handle.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2007, 01:07:02 PM »
I recall Davis Love hitting old clubs for one of his kid's science projects.  It was old club and new ball, but he did talk about the old ball.  He said that the old woods could not generate enough spin with the new ball and they would just nosedive.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/0505/2005/9/3/pga-notebook.html

I play hickories, 1940s persimmon, and 1970s-80s laminated maple with ProV1s and have little trouble keeping them in the air. And I only have about 90 mph clubhead speed, if that.

Most of what you read about old clubs and balls is myth, combined with wild speculation.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consequences of a "tournament ball"...
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2007, 01:14:29 PM »
I recall Davis Love hitting old clubs for one of his kid's science projects.  It was old club and new ball, but he did talk about the old ball.  He said that the old woods could not generate enough spin with the new ball and they would just nosedive.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/0505/2005/9/3/pga-notebook.html

I play hickories, 1940s persimmon, and 1970s-80s laminated maple with ProV1s and have little trouble keeping them in the air. And I only have about 90 mph clubhead speed, if that.

Most of what you read about old clubs and balls is myth, combined with wild speculation.

K

I think we need to meet some time.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader