Is the 12th green too small?

[Jim Nugent]

A low trajectory shot is at a distinct disadvantage when playing the hole.  A low trajectory shot would make the hole exponentially more difficult.

If you can stop the ball, why is that the case?  A lower trajectory would help neutralize the wind.

Trevino always said the course did not set up well for him.  He hit the ball too low.  I thought he meant his drives slammed into the sides of hills, and lost distance.  Was he partly talking about holes like 12 as well?  

One of the things that fooled me about ANGC, from a TV to a playing perspective is that some of the holes that I thought would be easy, were harder than they looked, and some of the holes I thought would be hard, were easier than they looked, and, some of the holes were true to their TV form.

Can you tell us which holes fall in which groups, and why?  

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,
   I'm not thinking about spin in terms of backing the ball up, but in just getting it to sit when it lands. The low trajectory, low-spin shot I usually hit would dictate that I play the hole long right. No way I want to be over the green in the rear bunker.
   How many times have you played the hole, and what is your success rate for getting on that green?
   I just don't understand why Nicklaus always wanted to take it over the front bunker when the pin was right. That is the smallest possible target isn't it?

That line is the smallest target green wise, but the largest target safety wise as a ball in the bunker won't go into the water by rolling back down the bank if hit short, plus there are bunkers directly behind the green on that same line which keeps it from going into the bushes.  So even if the green is only 9 yards deep there, your safe zone where 4 is the worst you can make and you still have a decent chance at 3 is around 25 yards deep!

The only risks to this strategy are if you plug in the back lip of the back bunker, and to a lesser extent if you plug in the lip of the front bunker (though that at least is still a 4 at worst)

Nicklaus always played the percentages.

[Matt_Cohn]

Michael,

[Mike Hendren]

Perfect Matt.  Thanks.  

Isn't this effectively how the hole plays?

Mike

[Mike Policano]

Pat,

I agree with you that the 13th at Pine Tree is very similiar.  I have commented on that several times, although, I hadn't met anyone else who had played both.  And back right seems the safest.

Cheers

[Mike Hendren]

Take a look at the orientation of those two tees.  Very deceptive.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

A low trajectory shot is at a distinct disadvantage when playing the hole.  A low trajectory shot would make the hole exponentially more difficult.

If you can stop the ball, why is that the case?

How do you stop a low trajectory ball ?
Since Patrons aren't permitted behind # 12 green you can't bounce it off them.
Which stops quicker, a high trajectory shot or a low trajectory shot from 159 yards ?
Do you possess the ability to stop a low trajectory shot from 159   yards, especially when your primary concern may be to make sure that you get it over the water ?   Does Ed Getka ?

It is a much harder shot for a low ball hitter.

A lower trajectory would help neutralize the wind.

How ?

Trevino always said the course did not set up well for him.  

That's true

He hit the ball too low.  

That's not true.

Trevino claimed it wasn't a fader's golf course, that it favored a draw or hook.  And, Trevino could hit any shot he wanted, he was one of the great ball strikers in golf.
Trevino's claim has been viewed by some as a deflective ploy, masking other reasons as to why he declined invitations to play in The Masters.

I thought he meant his drives slammed into the sides of hills, and lost distance.  

I don't think any of his drives would slam into the sides of hills.

If you look at many of the holes, especially in his era, they tend to favor the draw or hook.

# 2, # 5, # 8, # 9. # 10, # 13, # 14, # 15, # 16 and perhaps # 17 with Ike's tree in the left side of the fairway.

Was he partly talking about holes like 12 as well ?

I think a Trevino cut would work well on # 12.  

One of the things that fooled me about ANGC, from a TV to a playing perspective is that some of the holes that I thought would be easy, were harder than they looked, and some of the holes I thought would be hard, were easier than they looked, and, some of the holes were true to their TV form.

Can you tell us which holes fall in which groups, and why?

I always thought that # 10, # 11 and # 18 were hard holes, and they were, the setup on the tee on # 11 and # 18 is awkward, as are the lies in the fairway as are the surrounds at the  targeted greens.
# 10 played easier because the fairway is wide and sloped high right to low left, favoring a draw/hook.  The Turbo boost you get puts you much closer to the green, making the approach easier, but, still difficult.

# 16 played much easier than I thought.
The hole favors a nice draw, which was my natural flight, so it was very comfortable for me, as did # 12.

However, # 13 was a shocker.  It looks so easy on TV, but, when you're in the fairway, your feet are so far below the ball that it's quite startling, it's a low duck hook lie if I ever saw one, but, you need to hit a high fade, you can't hit a low hook or it will run into serious trouble.  And, if you lay up, the approach is very dicey.  No part of the green is flat.  Even the upper tier slopes toward the creek.

One surprise was that you rarely get a flat lie or a flat putt.

With a few exceptions, like # 1, the lies are all sidehill, uphill or downhill.  All of the greens with the exception of # 12 are either sloped, contoured or both.

# 6 was also a shocker.
The tee is high up and the shot isn't about distance, it's about feel, especially with some of the hole locations, the key is where  to miss it.

On # 9, if the wind is in your face, or it's wet, or you don't hit a perfect drive, you have a downhill-sidehill lie to a green that sits well above you that's well protected and sloped.

The terrain was so dramatically different from what I had seen on TV for 30-40 years that it presented a unique situation.
On one hand I felt that I knew the golf course like it was my own due to all the viewing I'd done over the years.  On the other hand, the topography combined with the slope/contours of the greens made it a brand new experience.

It's a wonderful golf course, fun and challenging.

Perhaps a testament to its genius is that it presents that package to every level of golfer.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   Thanks for the feedback about the various holes. What are your thoughts on #5 and 14? Those were two greens I found to be very intriguing when I walked the property. I would think the demands of those greens would really get into your head for the approach shot.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Thanks for the feedback about the various holes.

What are your thoughts on #5 and 14? Those were two greens I found to be very intriguing when I walked the property. I would think the demands of those greens would really get into your head for the approach shot.

Ed,

I asked the Caddies if they ever placed the hole in the lower section of both greens.  Every caddy I asked said, No.

I was lucky on # 5 as the hole sets up very comfortably for me off the tee.  A nice draw put me in good position every time and I was fortunate to hit very good approach shots, so I never had a great deal of difficulty with the hole.  However, I find it to be a very difficult hole.  The fairway bunkers are very deep, and if you drive into them, you're in big trouble.  As with almost every green, you can't get above the hole.  

I decided to view the hole in a context where I eradicated the lower portion of the green, seeing only the upper portion as a viable target.  I think that eliminated some of the mixed signals sent by the architecture.

As to # 14, while it too set up comfortably for me off the tee, but, not as comfortably as # 5.  I again chose to disregard the lower level of the green.

With both greens, being short isn't bad, being long is.
Being left on # 5 isn't good and being left or right on # 14 isn't good, so again, picking out where to miss the shot becomes an important consideration.

As an example.

If you hit your 6 iron 160 yards and you were 155 from the hole, I'd rather hit a firm 7 to 150 than a 6 to 160.  If you're on the lower level of both greens the putt is certainly difficult, but, not impossible.  If you go long, you're dead.  If you go left or right, that's not good either.  The default play should be short.

I think the holes/greens become more difficult when you lose your preferred angles of attack.  I've been fortunate in that I tend to drive the ball fairly straight, in play, so, I've been presented with a better or preferred angle of attack.  Those whose drives vary more, will find the difficulty of the holes increasing.

When I hear conversations with respect to "short" hitters, I often think of short hitters who are in the middle of the fairway, and how comfortable that can be for them.  How much easier their approaches are.

On the other hand, when Tiger won his first Masters I don't believe he used an iron lower than a 7-iron on any par 4, and, that's one hell of an advantage going into those greens.[/b]

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   How are you dead when long on #5 and 14? Is the pitch/chip so difficult that the most likely outcome is to go through the green and end up down front anyway? Or is the bank so steep that it is hard to judge the shot? I seem to remember the banks of those greens being somewhat like Pinehurst #2 in their height and slope when you go over. Is that correct?
    Thanks again for the feedback, I find it very interesting.

[Doug Spets]

The green is 16 paces deep on the left side and 15 paces on the right.  Over the bunker, 9 paces.  From the back of the right (upper) tee, it plays 143 to front left and 155 to front right.  The back of left (lower) tee position is 2 paces deeper.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

How are you dead when long on #5 and 14?

It's very easy to go into the woods if you go long on # 5.
And, if you go long left, the woods comes into play as well, especially if you kick off the incline.

And, once long, the recovery back is to a green that slopes away from you.

With respect to # 14, while there's no woods immediately behind the green, you have to hit up over the incline to a green that slopes away from you.  It's a difficult recovery.

Is the pitch/chip so difficult that the most likely outcome is to go through the green and end up down front anyway?

Yes

Or is the bank so steep that it is hard to judge the shot?

That too.

I seem to remember the banks of those greens being somewhat like Pinehurst #2 in their height and slope when you go over. Is that correct ?

I think there's a similarity.

Thanks again for the feedback, I find it very interesting.

[Scott Szabo]

Patrick,

I was wondering if you had any idea as to what the green speeds are for normal member play as compared to what the pros face in the Masters?

I've been reading many of the other threads concerning the Masters and have enjoyed every one of them.  I personally think the main factor in the scores going up was the weather - both the cold and the wind.  I read somewhere the average driving distances of the leaders and most were in the 265-280 range, a far cry from what we are used to seeing from the boys.  This would lead to much longer approaches into the greens.

Your thoughts?

Scott

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Scott,

I think there's a desire to have the greens play at the speeds allowed by Mother Nature, and generally on the fast side.

I don't think it's feasible to scalp greens in the non-growing season.

ANGC is closed for the summer.

It's a winter season golf course.

It's inadvisable to present green speeds meant to challenge the greatest golfers in the world, the PGA Tour Pros, to the general membership and their guests.

When the weather is co-operative and the greens are at Masters ' speeds, they'd be beyond the membership's ability to cope with.  So, while there's a desire to have them roll at pace, that pace has to be within the membership's means, otherwise rounds would be unenjoyable and LONG.

Unfortunately, TV tends to flatten the putting surfaces.
With the exception of # 12, they're all sloped, contoured or both, so when you add speed to them, they become difficult to very difficult to cope with.

You'd be surprised at how sloped the upper tiers on holes # 13 and # 16 are.

# 2, # 3, # 4, # 5, # 6, # 7, # 9, # 10, # 13, # 14, # 15, # 16 and # 18 have pretty good slope and/or contours.
# 1, # 11, # 17 have more subtle slopes and/or contours and
# 12 is the only fairly flat green on the golf course.  

[Scott Szabo]

Patrick,

I was there on Tuesday and don't recall a few of the holes you have mentioned as having alot of slope or contouring, specifically #3, #10, #11, and #15.  I'm sure you know better than I since you've played there, but I don't recall much slope.  I'm sure at Masters green speeds it doesn't take much to get them out of control.

Scott

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Scott,

# 3 is steeply sloped from high right to low left.

# 15 is also sloped from high right to low left.

As to # 11, it's mostly a high back to low front slope, subtle, but very much influential.

[BCrosby]

The 12th is perfect. For every type of player.

I have nothing to add to Pat's summary of the green contours.

Bob

[Phil McDade]

A question for Patrick if so moved to respond:

Is the 12th at Augusta really not as good of a hole as that par 3 at the Creek -- the one with the deep, island green -- that prompted many pages on a thread, and included your thoughts about its strategic merit? Maybe it's an apples-and-oranges comparison, although I note your observation that Augusta National -- particularly with green speeds -- plays different for members than for the Masters. The 12th at Augusta just seems like an ideal par 3, with all manner of factors (wind, nature of a wide green lacking depth, green surrounds, elevation of the tee, water, sand, slope) impacting play and decisions on the tee.

Just curious.....

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Phil McDade,

They're two entirely different types of par 3's.

The 11th at The Creek offers more diversity in play.

The 12th at ANGC plays from about 140 to 159, the 11th at The Creek plays from about 130 to 270.

It's also swept by the winds off of Long Island Sound, is totally surrounded by water and has a Biarritz type green.

While the two holes present very enjoyable, yet different challenges, I favor the 11th at The Creek due to its incredible diversity.