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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Desired Elements - Championship Test
« on: April 09, 2007, 05:33:45 PM »
To defend par for a major championship, rate the desirability of the following elements from 1 (essential) to 3 (indifferent):

Length
Wind
Width
Water
Rough
Trees
Topography
Firmness
Bunkering
Green Speeds
Green Contours

Mike
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 05:38:49 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Daryn_Soldan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Desired Elements - Championship Test
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007, 06:04:05 PM »
1 - Wind, Rough, Firmness, Green Speeds, Green Contours

2 - Length, Water, Trees, Topography

3 - Width, Bunkering

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Desired Elements - Championship Test
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2007, 06:21:32 PM »
Essential - topography (I take topography here to mean contours not on or in the area of the green) green speeds, green contours

Desireable - wind, firmness (I'd place firmness as essential but realize mother nature can't be counted on to cooperate)

Indifferent - Length, Width, Water, Rough, Trees, Bunkering


I'm sure some would argue with me about being indifferent about bunkering, but I think its possible to have a world class course without bunkers.  Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it isn't possible, only than architects haven't been able to get that far outside the box (either due to their own biases or the demands of their clients)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Desired Elements - Championship Test
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 07:25:36 PM »
Essential- Firmness, green contours, topography, wind, green speeds, water.

Desirable- Bunkers (unraked), rough, trees, width (assuming the green contours accomplish their goal of penalizing out of position plays), length.

Indifferent- none, we need every weapon at our disposal to stop these boys. They are GOOD, after all. 8)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Desired Elements - Championship Test
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 12:14:12 PM »
I would argue that defending par has nothing to do with a championship test.

A championship test should examine all aspects of the game, and the person that scores the best on all aspects wins without regard to par.

I envision the test to include a few narrow demanding driving holes as well as many wide open strategic driving holes. In the US, I imagine at least part of the test be parklands style, while some may also be links style. I imagine nearly unputtable hole locations, along with hole locations where a high percentation of 15 to 20 footers could be stroked in. I imagine tight chipping areas as well as flop shot rough around greens. You get the picture.  :o

I also imagine the US Open or the PGA at Friars Head.
 :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Desired Elements - Championship Test
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2007, 01:45:44 PM »
...
Water- EVERYWHERE!  Apparently the professionals love this
...

What percentage of those professionals would tell you that TOC is their favorite course?  ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Desired Elements - Championship Test
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2007, 02:27:15 PM »
Length - 1
Wind - 2
Width - 2
Water - 3
Rough - 2
Trees - 3
Topography - 1
Firmness - 1
Bunkering - 2
Green Speeds - 2
Green Contours - 1

Over the last week I have wondered whether the masters would be a better tournament if the current greens measured 9 on the stimpmeter.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Desired Elements - Championship Test
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 03:12:31 PM »
Why wouldn't the variety as evidenced in the following quotes from Ran's reviews create a better championship test than (with apologies to George) a more uniform Oakmont?

Quote
Thus, a huge range of recovery shots exists, from a bunker shot that must quickly climb thirty feet in the air to a bump and run up a hill.

The merit of placing a tee at a diagonal to the fairway is evidenced here.

blind shots add to the enjoyment and variety of the challenge. However, too many blind shots and a course may ultimately lose some of its appeal. Conversely, too few blind shots and the opportunity for the architect to create some uncertainty and mystery has been lost.

one of the worst things that can occur at the start of such a stay is to drive the ... green ... the bravado it affords all but guarantees that the golfer will have a disaster on this hole at another point

The chance of drawing a level stance for one's approach to the green is slim and the potato chip green shrugs balls off on all sides

routed the middle of the fairway along a spine that runs for much of the hole. To either side of the spine are twenty foot deep bowls, down in which the sight of the green is blocked

hit the ball short in hopes for a pitch and putt par

the green's angle at the base of a dune and its severe pitch from back to front often require the golfer to take more shots to cover the last 40 yards than was needed for the first 470 yards

the optimal angle into the green is from its base but the uphill shot is blind

The  surrounding area of the green is kept tightly mown, with many a delicate chip shots to be had

the golfer is continually tempted to take on the hazards in order to gain an advantage. For instance, off the tee, the brave tee ball skates past the left hand bunker complex in order to get a potential seventy yards extra in roll

green is bunkerless, in sharp contrast to the next one

short hole allows the better golfer to shine through with superior ball control

The contrast of this tightly guarded green against the openness of the prior green makes the target appear even more elusive

With the approach shot sharply uphill, the hole can be unmerciful in certain conditions. However, it is worth noting that the most level portion of any fairway on the course can be found at the base of the hill

At the end, Ran writes
Quote
At the end of many a thirty-six hole day, the golfer realizes there is no other place he would rather be.
which says to me that the variety creates the greatest members' course too.

I will admit that Oakmont does exhibit much of the variety referenced above, just to I believe a lesser degree.
 :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne