What is the greatest course where driver is the least important?

[John Kavanaugh]

I agree it used to be ANGC and now no longer is...So, who holds the crown today?  Is Cypress a contender?  Given the TE Paul stories of Davis Love and his one iron...could it be Pine Valley?

[JESII]

Are you talking about the need to hit driver from a length perspective or the need to hit it straight from an accuracy perspective?

[Phil Benedict]

Evidently Hoylake if you are Tiger Woods.

[John Kavanaugh]

Evidently Hoylake if you are Tiger Woods.

This assumes Hoylake is a great course but I had thought of that exactly as you.  I am saying the need to hit a driver long and straight from an accuracy perspective.  I'm sure you could play Shoreacres or Chicago GC without driver as well.

[rjsimper]

JK-

Do you mean the Driver in terms of the actual club, or do you mean the driver as in the ability to hit it 280 and straight?

While I would think CPC is potentially the greatest course that does not require the ability to hit it 280 and straight, for the modest length hitter who can make a carry of around 220 yards max, the Driver becomes supremely important (especially on 16).

[Phil Benedict]

I interpret the question to mean where can a great player get by without using his driver very much?  This could probably apply to a number of Open Championship venues in certain playing conditions.

In the States, I think a big hitter could tackle Shinnecock without using the driver very often.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't really know what I'm talking about.  I guess it would be the course where the guy with the best driving stats doesn't have an advantage.  Stats being a combination of length and fairways hit.  

[Doug Siebert]

How about TOC?  You can hit some horrendous drives far away from where you intended to be, but so long as you miss left and avoid the pot bunkers and gorse, you certainly have no technical obstacles that would prevent you getting 18 GIRs.  Well, 17 I guess, the Road Hole is not an easy GIR even with a perfect drive.

Some of the angles might be pretty bad depending on the pins, but the charm of TOC is that if you can be sublime in your execution of your approach shot in equal measure to how awful your tee shot was, you can still put your ball in a good position on the green.

[wsmorrison]

The least important?  I have no idea what you mean.  What sort of conditions, what level of player are you speaking of and what kind of scoring is one trying to accomplish?  

I think with some of the new tees, Davis Love III would have a driver in his bag if he was to play Pine Valley today.

Whatever it is you are trying to get at, Shinnecock is indeed a course where hitting driver long and straight is important on a number of holes, on ones with open approaches but especially on ones where you need an aerial approach.  I think hitting driver from the championship tees is key on nearly half the holes:  3,5,6,9,12,14,16 and 18.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I don't know exactly how to interpret your question.

In the old days, driver was the hardest club in the bag to hit.  Jack Nicklaus and Greg Norman are held in awe by their peers because they were such great "drivers of the ball" ... they could hit a persimmon driver hard with a fair degree of accuracy.  And in those days, when the rest of the equipment was also a bit behind, being able to hit driver was nearly always an advantage in giving you a more reasonable second shot.

Today it's just a different game.  The driver is one of the easiest clubs in the bag to hit, even for me -- years ago, I didn't even carry a driver because I was so inconsistent with it, I just used a 3-wood and a 1-iron for my tee shots.  Courses play so much shorter that nobody needs the length -- any Tour pro could hit 3-wood off every tee and not suffer except where he wants to reach the par-fives in two, but they don't bother with that because they can all hit driver just as straight as their 3-wood.

I'm not sure you really have to drive it well on ANY course now.

[Rich Goodale]

John

There is no such course in the world, and there never was, and if there ever were it would be so bad that even Tom's II and IV (Naccarato and/or Huckaby) wouldn't be able to say a nice thing about it!

Tom V (Doak)

I can't think of a course (ancient or contemporary) that doesn't significantly reward "driving well."  If Tiger knew how to drive his ball, he'd have his 5th green jacket now (plus god knows how many other majors...), and if Nicklaus weren't such a great driver he'd be in Watson's, Palmer's and Trevino's pantheon, rather than his own.

Respect

Rich

[redanman]

I think with some of the new tees, Davis Love III would have a driver in his bag if he was to play Pine Valley today.

I'll bet it's less than you'd think.

4 - I'm not sure ...... if they build the proposed Fronk-en-steen tee (haven't been down yet this season) perhaps
13 - no
15 - depends on what you are trying to do
18 - wind-dependent at best

long hitting professionals are pretty swift with metal-headed 13-15* clubs, too you know.

[wsmorrison]

Bill V,

Of course wind is a factor, but let's factor it out for the purpose of this discussion.

With a new back tee on 4 (if it gets built) they will need driver to get over the top of the hill and so will definitely use it.  As it is today, it is usually so firm that I'm sure most would use 3-wood to avoid the cross-bunkers that are about 290 yards out.  With the new back tee on 13, I think many would hit driver.  Davis Love doesn't hit all out like he used to.  Yes, he bombs it with the best of them but is more controlled now.  Given his use of driver at Augusta, I think he would use driver on 13 especially with certain pin positions that require precise approaches.  With the new back tees on 15 and 18 and given the width, why wouldn't he?  

[redanman]

Wayne

Do you think that they'll build that Fronk-en-steen tee on #4?  I hope not.

Back to the topic, I really don't think that many of the longer players would need driver on #13, a 3-wood ought to do it as you don't really want to be on the downslope if you can help it.

These fellows are hitting 3-w 290-300 + unless denied roll.  Carry distances in 250-275 numbers. (Average tour pros are carrying D 255 and 3w 240 or so, last figures I saw.  

As an aside
If el Tigre left the driver in the bag more often he'd win more, especially majors.  If I were Stevie I might break his driver on the first or second hole every round. He'd definitely make up in salary enough more to pay for all those broken Sumo2's.

What course MUST one hit driver? (assuming reasonable length)

None, actually, it's always a choice.

[JESII]

W.

It is now 267 to get over the swale on #13 at PV...from the back tee...it's a driver in all but real fast conditions.


Why do you hope they do not build the proposed tee on #4? I don't really have an opinion one way or another, but it would restore the documented intent of approaching the green from the top of the hill...look out clubhouse!

[redanman]

I think the tee on #4 would be monumentally ugly as a built up eyesore back in the woods, but that's just my O.  Walking back to it and taking the elevator to it would generally slow play. Of course massive amounts of fill could be used and the road could then run through a tunnel back there ......

If they do build it, it should be reserved for the Crump Cup and the like. (Should we be changing that to the "Colt Cup"? Do you think?

Aside ....... personally, I've only played the new #14 tee once and I did hit driver and had 19* rescue (2-iron equivalent) in, just like the first time I played in 1985 or so. I think that would translate to 3-wood and 5-7-iron for say Ernie Els.

Then ........ I missed the damn putt!

[JESII]

W.

You are correct, the top guys could hit 3w if they want, but unless it's real firm they will not be hitting a 7 iron in. The fairway is wider and flatter back where the 3w would go so I can't really say it wouldn't happen, but they would trade that 7 iron for a 4 or 5 iron.



p.s. as to #4, I think that is all they would use it for...

[wsmorrison]

I watched Tiger Woods on the practice tee this past week.  He had a very interesting practice regimen where he hit half swings with his driver off the deck and then right afterwards take an 80% swing using a tee.  He hit every drive off the tee straight as an arrow about 255 yards and 30 feet up the netting.  I don't know what the carry and roll distance would be, but I'm sure it would be enough for him to hit fairways at a much higher rate than he does today.  Why does he hit driver near 100% swing speed on the course when he clearly doesn't have to?

[Doug Siebert]

These fellows are hitting 3-w 290-300 + unless denied roll.  Carry distances in 250-275 numbers. (Average tour pros are carrying D 255 and 3w 240 or so, last figures I saw.

Average pros carrying driver 255?  That's either a typo or that's how they USED to be carrying driver 10 or 20 years ago.

[Dan Kelly]

Why does he hit driver near 100% swing speed on the course when he clearly doesn't have to?

That's a great question. I wish I knew how to get it to him.

I've thought for some time now that Tiger should use my favorite shot -- the knock-down driver. I suppose it's about 80 percent of a full driver.

If I can hit it consistently straight (and I can), he sure as heck could -- 'cause I'm no Tiger Woods, that's for danged sure!