News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tim Weiman

What's so good about firm and fast?
« on: September 09, 2002, 10:10:34 AM »
On another thread Corey Miller expressed his opinion that most people don't like "firm and fast". My experience has been that Corey is correct.

Is the preference for "green", well watered fairways and greens just impossible to overcome?

Or have those who prefer firm and fast just not presented a strong enough case?

Can anyone outline why the golfing public should prefer F&F? In other words, what doesn't the golf public "get"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2002, 10:27:49 AM »
Tim:

I'm not sure there is a right or wrong to this question.  It could just be a matter of personal preference.  

I can say that my home course Charles River has gone from a firm and fast to a much softer, green and lush.

This doesn't mean that one is correct and the other is not.  I think in this case it is more a philosophy of the Green committee and the Super as opposed to anything else.

However the course plays much differently in green, lush, soft conditions then it does when it is firm and fast.  

Is it harder or easier one way or the other?? Probably not just different and changes the strategy and the type of shots hit.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2002, 10:31:50 AM »
That's a very tough question, Tim.  I'm not 100% sure F&F isn't better as much as it is "different" and in this case the brown grass is greener on the other side.

I hope that made sense.   ;)

Obviously lush greenery is not good for environmental reasons... too much water use, etc.

But for pure golf reasons.. well... F&F is definitely FUN for me, but mainly because I see it so seldom.  It's a lot tougher also, given that all greenside shots become problematic and require imagination rather than the simple drop and plop...

But I have no answer to what the majority is "missing".  Green fairways are easy to play off, look generally prettier to most people, make the game easier for most people... this is always gonna be a tough sell.

No answers here, only questions.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TomSteenstrup

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2002, 10:33:13 AM »
My thinking is:

The golfing public aren't good enough golfers to play F&F conditions. Nobody likes to see their PW shot bounce off the green.

I can't number the many times I have heard "The greens were great. My wedge approach on the XX hole landed right next to the flag and just stuck there!!!" (here translated to english of course)

Actually, it's only the one F they don't like... I don't think I have ever heard a complaint about greens being too fast.

The golfing public may like F&F when match play becomes standard play (again), although I'm not sure even that is enough of a change.

My 17 danish øre (roughly 2 cents)  :)

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2002, 10:43:53 AM »
Tim W:

The long and short of it ...

When courses are firm and fast the margins of difficulty INCREASE because balls can run into areas that in other times would not happen. This is of major concern to the better player and those who hit the ball a long ways.

On the flip side for the shorter player is this ... with firm and fast this type of player can narrow the gap in total distance between himself and the longer player. The better player ALWAYS has the advantage in carrying the ball. The shorter player does not. Give you a clear example -- Corey Pavin would not have had any shot in winning the '95 Open at SH without firm and fast conditions taking hold at th ecourse from Thurdsday on when the course began to dry out.

The additional roll allows the shorter player to get into position for a second shot. This is especially true for senior players and the like. I am absolutely flabbergasted that so many courses keep the turf so wet that these short hitters must constantly struggle with wood approaches on any par-4 that goes beyond 420 yards. It's hit and plug or hit and roll at best 5-10 yards. When I caddied a number of years ago at UMCC in Clifton, NJ this was often the case.

The other aspect of firm and fast is that putting surfaces do not become dart boards. They require plenty of thought as to how the ball will hit and release. Players must gauge both aspects of flight and roll.

When courses are soft this gives the longer and better player a distinct advantage because he can then aim at the corners and know the ball will not roll much, it at all.

The problem is that many people, including the braintrusts at many facilities, are mistaken to believe that green is the golden rule in turf and therefore bombard the grounds with endless streams of H2O. I can't for the life of me understand how a course can be so wet that one takes veal cutlet size divots during the height of summer in dry circumstances. A little brown color in the fairways is perfectly OK and should not be eliminated like it was some sort of disease.

The issue is usually twofold; many superintendents are intent on playing it "safe" and therefore over do the H20. Or, the superintendent is TOLD by key higher-ups to water as much as necessary in order to keep the color green. What amazes me is that such a wasteful use of precious resources is not needed. Golf, in its optimum, is a game that feature the unique and exciting mixture between the aerial and ground games. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2002, 11:22:58 AM »
Matt Ward:

It sounds like you prefer firm and fast and are frustrated the golfing public doesn't "get it".

What I'm trying to understand is why support for firm and fast is so limited and what it would take to gain support.

If the case is so strong, why is it rejected by so many? Are they all just idiots? Has the case really been made?

Are we wrong?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2002, 11:24:09 AM »
Tim,
If you want firm and fast, go play Charleston Springs as Mike Cirba mentioned in an earlier post.  The course is a muni, it's about a 4 on the Doak scale, get's about 50,000 rounds a year, you can walk any time, and your drives will roll 60 yards!  

No problem with firm and fast conditions here  ;)
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2002, 11:54:37 AM »
Each year when I watch the Masters I get the impression that the course is firm and fast, especially the back nine.  Is this simply an illusion because of the number of downhill tee shots or is it really that way.  It seems that except when they've had rain it is very difficult to hold a number of the greens with longer irons such as number 15 and even then with a short iron the ball can roll back into the hazard simply because of the slope and speed of the green.   This leads to the question of whether a course can be green and still play hard and fast, and does the time of day that they are watered play into how hard and fast it will be.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2002, 11:54:38 AM »
Tim W:

Keep in mind many people like McDonald's and have limited understanding of real cuisine! The same applies with firm and fast conditions. The "bounce" is an integral part of the game.

Joe Sixpack who plays just wants to see lush conditions because it "looks" so good. Firm and fast is not about looking good -- it's about courses playing good!

Hope this helps ... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2002, 12:04:00 PM »
Matt,
     Thank you for an excellent post.  That was helpful to me in terms of the trade-offs involved for various levels of skill.  
     Due to the drought conditions here in the SE, the super at our course has eliminated watering the fairways.  He had already severely curtailed watering the greens, not because of the drought, but to prevent fungus problems in the late summer.  He allowed the greens to become incredibly firm in May and June;  this forced the root systems deeper, and now with syringing twice a day, and some minimal use of the sprinklers, the greens are in the best condition that they have ever been in.  (He had to endure a lot of bitching by the membership in the meantime, though!)  By contrast, I played last week at a high end daily fee (Woodmont) where the greens were soft.  They were also absolutely awful!
     I also was surprised to find that exactly what Matt Ward says was true in our club championhip two weeks ago; scores among better golfers were significantly higher that previous years, while the scores in higher flights were relatively unchanged.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2002, 12:06:23 PM »
Each year when I watch the Masters I get the impression that the course is firm and fast, especially the back nine.  Is this simply an illusion because of the number of downhill tee shots or is it really that way.  It seems that except when they've had rain it is very difficult to hold a number of the greens with longer irons such as number 15 and even then with a short iron the ball can roll back into the hazard simply because of the slope and speed of the green.   This leads to the question of whether a course can be green and still play hard and fast, and does the time of day that they are watered play into how hard and fast it will be.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2002, 12:14:49 PM »
Matt Ward:

Sorry to put words in your mouth, but it sure sounds like you are saying the average golfer is an idiot when it comes to golf architecture/maintenance.

Maybe that's right.

I still wonder if the case for firm and fast is so strong, why we can't make better?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mark studer

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2002, 12:16:24 PM »
Tim- another reason we see SO many courses green and wet more times than dry is that it is MUCH easier for the sup't to water heavily than it is to keep the course on the "edge" of firm and fast. This summer's heat in southwestern pennsylvania ( 22 days in the 90's versus 4 days on average) has stressed many a putting surface.  Many times a lush more wet course is better job security than a firm and fast one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2002, 12:33:14 PM »
Mark,
What stresses the greens is NOT the high temperatures!  It is either:
     a. insistence on high speeds AND soft conditions
              and/or
     b. overwatering each evening, leading to disease
              
Again, at clubs in GA, where 90+ days are standard, good supers have realized that very firm greens are much healthier.  They are less disease prone, ball marks are fewer and smaller, and traffic isn't as damaging.
If you are finding that greens are stressed, by 20-25 days in the 90's, the greenskeepers are doing lots of things wrong!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim Weiman

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2002, 12:37:27 PM »
Mark Studer:

Is it possible for the Green Chairman, the Board or the Committee (as they sometimes call it across the pond) to assume the responsibility?

Can they tell members that the Superintendent is doing what he is told?

Or do the politics make that impossible...... unless your name is John Arthur Brown?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie struthers

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2002, 01:12:47 PM »
;) :D 8)


I don't think there is any question that the majority of the general public likes to see green and lush, with greens that hold anything. If you like firm and fast, you either have to play at certain times of the year, at some courses this might be Christmas. Or, play at a hip private club (eg Huntingdon Valley) that gets it. Or, play at a poor muni as Mark alludes to in an earlier thread. Unless the owners/greens comittee has a strong constitution and firm resolve, its hard to achieve acceptance of F&F, but lets keep trying!!!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2002, 01:44:06 PM »
A.G.:

Well said on your comments on how poor superintendents can often mix and match incorrectly leading to the problems you mentioned.

Let me also mention that many a good superintendent is ORDERED to do such things by club leaders and these gutless bastards then have the audacity to blame the superintendent when things obviously blow up in their face.

Tim W:

Let's just say the average golfer really is ignorant about the game. Many are more interested in the cart girl and whether or not the GPS system works on the cart. How many times do golfers go to Scotland and Ireland and rave about the firm and fast conditions but would likely bitch all day and night if conditions in the USA were like that?

Lush conditions are easy "on the eyes" of the masses. The average golfer sees the color of green and believes all is well with the game.

Firm and fast can help the long term health of the course and the game in general. You LEARN to play different shots instead of hitting the proverbial high iron that ALWAYS sticks to the putting surface.

When courses firm up you have to be very aware of what the ball will do AFTER it lands. Firm and fast ELEVATES thinking and reduces the margins for indifferent play.

Last item -- I'll say this again -- firm and fast helps the player who doesn't hit the ball a long ways. Firm and fast is probably the best way to elevate SHOTMAKING instead of RAW POWER.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2002, 02:23:05 PM »
It is a matter of choice.  On a firm and fast course, I can CHOOSE to either fly the ball in or I can run it up.  This gives all types of golfers options on how to play the game.

On a soft wet golf course, I can pound the ball off of the tee and then drop a bomb on the green.  I can't roll the ball to the putting surface, it isn't possible.  Short hitters, women and seniors don't stand a chance.

OPTION=FUN FOR EVERYONE
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2002, 02:58:47 PM »
Cos:

If it is "fun for everyone", why can't the idea be sold?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2002, 03:09:25 PM »
many of the older clubs are looking for more yards on the course so they are adding back tees.  any set-up that increases the distance you hit the ball is then thought of as being bad because it "shortens" the course thus making it "easier"

Dunlop White has a great article about trees which i have shared with some at my club.  I think I need an article about F&F also.  Would love to see a study of some sort about how F&F affects scoring.  Many admit it is more fun, would love to prove that scoring does not go down also.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2002, 03:42:33 PM »
At one point does firm & fast simply become baked out?

One of my regular golfing buddies played this past weekend (without me! ) at our home track, North Park golf course. He complained about it being too firm. He knows about my addiction to this site &, when I informed him that the guys online would be disappointed in his attitude, he stated that "they don't know what baked out & hard is." He was frustrated that a drive hit on the 18th over a ridge to the left had literally nothing to stop it from running 50-100 yards down the hill into the trees. I didn't want to disappoint him, but it sounded to me like he hit the wrong shot.

Somewhat in his defense, our home track is a muni with extrememly inconsistent conditions - he said on many holes the greens were too firm to hold his shots & the approaches were too soft to allow run ups.

He's a pretty decent golfer, generally shooting in the low 80s on our track, which is admittedly not too tough. If he's not sold on firm & fast, it's hard to imagine others would be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2002, 06:11:58 PM »
Tim,
I think the accompanying weather has a lot to do with it.
The Scots are lucky, they grew up with firm and cool.  

Firm and Fast are appreciated more in my corner of Connecticut in the month of October than the month of August when F&F is equated with hot and crappy.
We usually get some rain in September that turns our browned out old strains of grasses green again. The end of Sept. and most of October are dry and the cool nights and dewy morns help to keep it this way. The conditions then become optimal- green yet firm, cool and dry. Add the colorful scenery and it's the best of all worlds.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2002, 07:04:04 PM »
What's so good about firm and fast?

The ball is round.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2002, 07:10:21 PM »
If any of us talk about this subject, either here or elsewhere, can we PLEASE, PLEASE start by SEPARATING this discussion into TWO distinct categories???

#1!!!

Firm and fast "through the green".

Then, #2:

The degree of firmness ON THE GREEN!!

Just FORGET about the firmness of the green surfaces would you??

Once the course "through the green" gets firm and fast, THEN and only THEN should we discuss the degree of firmness on the green!!

And green firmness has very little to do with greenspeed!!

Never, never speak about firm and fast "through the green" and on the green at the same time--NOT YET ANYWAY!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's so good about firm and fast?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2002, 07:16:10 PM »
I am a great advocate of firm and fast and have said many times my favorite courses are in the British Isles because of the conditions that permit "real golf".  But over here, forget it.  My 99% rule takes over unfortunately.  Most all golfers want lush overmanicured green grass.  Golf is viewed by most as a "walk in the park" and how many people want to walk in a park that has firm brown grass and no trees  ;)  See why my 99% rule is correct!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »