Is the 12th green too small?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Not that I think the scores are too high, but does anyone go for the right pin?  Doesn't that make it a non strategic hole?
Or is the strategy of the hole in the context of the course far more important?

It looks about 3,000 sft from above or maybe 10 paces deep.
Does anyone know the dimensions?

[Matt_Cohn]

Mike,

You'll recall I posted a thread earlier this week about hypothetically expanding the 12th green, and it was not well received.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mike,

They're PGA Tour Pros, the best golfers in the world.
It's 159 yards at its longest.
They're normally hitting 7, 8 and 9 irons.  Even wedges.

The hole is almost perfect the way it is.

Why should they have a right of entitlement to make a good score ?

Why shouldn't the hole test them ?

[Jim Johnson]

Mike,

Using "Gmaps Pedometer", it looks like it's 30 feet from immediately behind the front bunker to the back of the green, and about 118 feet across. But....the Google image shows part of the green in shadow, so it's pretty difficult to tell for sure.

JJ

[Doug Siebert]

Mickelson probably goes for the right pin every time.  The 12th hole is the counterpoint to the 16th.  The 12th sets up for lefties and makes right handers uncomfortable, and the 16th does the opposite.

[kurt bowman]

Mike,

The 12th green is 2900 ft2. It is nine paces deep in it's narrowest spot, and 13 paces at it's deepest. It is a perfect strategic hole. Most tour pro's play the percentages, and other holes leave better birdie opportunities than #12. A tour player is better off to aim for the middle, or left under Master's pressure, and protect par because holes like 13, 15, and 16 yield a better chance for birdie typically.

[David Ober]

Mike,

The 12th green is 2900 ft2. It is nine paces deep in it's narrowest spot, and 13 paces at it's deepest. It is a perfect strategic hole. Most tour pro's play the percentages, and other holes leave better birdie opportunities than #12. A tour player is better off to aim for the middle, or left under Master's pressure, and protect par because holes like 13, 15, and 16 yield a better chance for birdie typically.

Personally, I love the hole and hope they don't change anything about it. The funny thing is that the hole would be tough at 130 yards!!!

[Jon Spaulding]

One of the better holes I've not seen in person....the size of the green, the position in the round, the shot values are all solid. You can feel things tightening up as the player approaches the tee. Probably the spot I'd set up camp if I were to attend the tournament.

[Mike Hendren]

Mike,

Mackenzie would likely think so.

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Mike,

Mackenzie would likely think so.

Mike

Why do you say that, Mike, was it larger when the course opened?  I agree it's a perfect shot at the right time during a championship event.  It's not similar to a MacDonald "Short" hole where the test is to get a short iron close so the green is huge, it's a test of how courageous can you be at that stage of a major event!  I love to watch how cautious the players are on such a short hole, it can really bite you in the backside.  

[Mike Hendren]

Bill,

In photographs, the green appears to be deeper.  More importantly, there was a very high and steep bank directly behind the putting surface that provided a backstop, though purportedly balls had a tendency to plug if carried into the bank.  Also, the green was lower and the bank of the creek wasn't shaved, with balls playable from the hazard.  

Apparently, Roberts or Jones once suggested that Ike play a ball from the hazard and he was quickly knee deep in quicksand!

I object to shaving down the banks of the hazards at 11-13 and at 15.  

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

For reference:

[redanman]

That photo so strongly resembles a Pine Tree green with water ....

[Mike Hendren]

Would some Photoshop guru please bring the nice blue water in the photo above hard against the putting surface on either side of the fronting bunker?  In other words the water should wrap around the front bunker up to the green.

That's how the hole plays.  Find the guy with the ball concession and you've identified the real culprit.

Mike

[ed_getka]

Mike,
   No, I don't think it is too small.

Patrick and those who have played the hole,
    Is the wind really so hard to judge on that hole? I am always surprised at how often the pros hit the ball in the water there. Especially given their superior distance control and spin they put on the ball.

I also read or heard somewhere this week that 12 green picks up speed on the right half towards 13 tee. So wouldn't it make sense for mortal golfers to take an extra club and miss long right (right of the bunkers) which would leave a pretty ordinary chip instead of bringing the bunkers in play by going for the middle of the green? Just wondering.

[PThomas]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pete Lavallee]

The unfortunate outcome of raising the green 4-5 feet, to avoid flooding, has definetly made the green much smaller than the original. But looking at the overhead view and the view showed repeatedly from the Hogan bridge yesterday, it seems like the only way to increase the size of the putting surface would be to either use bulkheads or add fill to the front bank.

The hole is only tough for right handed golfers. I believe Mike Weir is -7 for his career there.

[JESII]

If you recall, Mickelson went right at it and made a birdie to start his charge three years ago...I think that was the first of 5 in the last 7 for him...

Certainly a risk, but with a relatively flat green, the reward is a very makeable putt I'd guess.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Matt,
Sorry I missed you thread...
But I certainly wasn't trying to suggest changing the hole.
I was asking about the strategy of the hole.

Pat,
Maybe I should have asked should the right side target be marginally greater to at least tempt someone to aim there.
That could be done with a larger collar shrinking the green surface - kind of like a tiny, tiny pillow in front of the green.

Kurt,
Thank you for the data.

Pete,
In stead of lefties vs. righties isn't it left to right ball flight vs. right to left?

If playing a right to left shot, the creek isn't in play but there is very little room to land on the green, and you often wind up back left.  Playing a left to right shot gives the length of the green to work with, but brings the creek in to play.  

How hard is it to get up and down from back right of the green.

[Pete Lavallee]

Mike,

The difficulty of 12 for right handers has nothing to do with shot shape. It has to do with miss patterns.

For every golf shot 3 things can happen:

1.)  the clubface is square (or slightly open or closed for intentional fades and draws); the ball travels as planned
2.)  the clubface is open at impact; the ball goes right and because there is more loft the ball comes up short
3.)  the clubface is closed at impact; the ball goes left and long becuase now their is less loft at impact.

So for right handers the miss pattern looks like a bra oriented from 10:30 to 4:30. You can see why this makes the orientation of the 12th green good for lefties but hell for right handers.

I have never seen anyone over the back and to the right of that green.

[tlavin]

Mike,

They're PGA Tour Pros, the best golfers in the world.
It's 159 yards at its longest.
They're normally hitting 7, 8 and 9 irons.  Even wedges.

The hole is almost perfect the way it is.

Why should they have a right of entitlement to make a good score ?

Why shouldn't the hole test them ?

DITTO

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Not that I think the scores are too high, but does anyone go for the right pin?  

Yes

Doesn't that make it a non strategic hole ?

No.

Mike, par 3's are the least strategic, if not inherently non-strategic, holes on a golf course.

They're essentially target golf.

Or is the strategy of the hole in the context of the course far more important ?

Par 3's are demand holes.
You have a dictated approach shot from a finite distance.
It's a universal test.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick and those who have played the hole,
   
Is the wind really so hard to judge on that hole?

I can see how it can be.
The hole is nestled back into the base of a hillside with tall trees.
It can be difficult to gage because the wind in the open areas where the tees are can be different from the wind at the green, and the hillside and trees on it can block or act as a backstop to the wind.

What also makes judging the hole more difficult is the shadows.

# 12 is probably the flattest green on the golf course so you get no assistance from the contouring with respect to depth perception, plus, since it's usually played late in the round, the shadows act like camoflage gear.

I am always surprised at how often the pros hit the ball in the water there.

I think there are a couple of factors that lead to that.
While you know the water is there, in front of the green, going long seems like it could extract a far more severe penalty.

That hillside is awfully close to the green, as are the shrubs and back bunkers.

If you go into any of them, the shot back to the green is frightening, and, if you go in the water, you have to replay the shot from where you were, or, go to the tee side of the water and take a drop, where you're now faced with another intimidating shot.

So, it's not as if the water is the only thing you have to be concerned with.

What you can't see from the aerials is the dip in the terrain behind the green, especially on the left side.

What I am surprised by is that more players don't go at the right side, especially when the hole is there because the margins for error are so much more substantial.

Look at the aerial Mike posted.
Look at all the room right and long right.

The putt from the left side of the green to the right side of the green is supposed to be the slowest putt on the golf course, so, I would imagine that the approach from the right or long right would be rather quick, but, it just seems like a natural bail out zone.

While the carry is slightly longer, it's not substantively longer, and, these guys are PGA Tour Pros, the best golfers in the world.

So, I remain mystified by the play on # 12.

Especially given their superior distance control and spin they put on the ball.

I'm not so sure that spin or excessive spin is an asset on this hole.

These guys are hitting lofted clubs, HIGH, to a relatively flat green.  There shouldn't be much need to spin the ball, especially when spin may take the ball to a watery grave.

I also read or heard somewhere this week that 12 green picks up speed on the right half towards 13 tee. So wouldn't it make sense for mortal golfers to take an extra club and miss long right (right of the bunkers) which would leave a pretty ordinary chip instead of bringing the bunkers in play by going for the middle of the green?

I think that's a reasonable strategy.
Perhaps the fear is an overcooked fade or a ball that gets away from you, or a good gust of wind.

Perhaps pressure and the knowledge of what lies short, long and left are the culprits.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   I'm not thinking about spin in terms of backing the ball up, but in just getting it to sit when it lands. The low trajectory, low-spin shot I usually hit would dictate that I play the hole long right. No way I want to be over the green in the rear bunker.
   How many times have you played the hole, and what is your success rate for getting on that green?
   I just don't understand why Nicklaus always wanted to take it over the front bunker when the pin was right. That is the smallest possible target isn't it?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick,
   
I'm not thinking about spin in terms of backing the ball up, but in just getting it to sit when it lands. The low trajectory, low-spin shot I usually hit would dictate that I play the hole long right. No way I want to be over the green in the rear bunker.

A low trajectory shot is at a distinct disadvantage when playing the hole.  A low trajectory shot would make the hole exponentially more difficult.
 
How many times have you played the hole, and what is your success rate for getting on that green ?

I've played it a half a dozen times and never missed the green.

However, I have a bit of an advantage.
The 13th hole at Pine Tree is a mirror image of # 12 at ANGC, except that the 13th green at Pine Tree may be narrower, more angled, and prone to more wind at higher velocities.
And, I've played that green a 100 or more times, so, for me, it's a very familiar, a very comfortable feel.

I know I've probably just jinxed myself, but, my scoring average on the hole is below par.

One of the things that fooled me about ANGC, from a TV to a playing perspective is that some of the holes that I thought would be easy, were harder than they looked, and some of the holes I thought would be hard, were easier than they looked, and, some of the holes were true to their TV form.

I just don't understand why Nicklaus always wanted to take it over the front bunker when the pin was right. That is the smallest possible target isn't it ?

I think that's a good strategy for Nicklaus.
Remember, he hit a high fade and a high fade, aimed at that bunker, should get good results.

Look at the aerial Mike posted, the position of that bunker in relation to the tee and the flight of a high fade over that bunker.
I definitely wouldn't attempt to hit a draw to the right side hole location.  A high fade seems logical.  And, if the ball doesn't fade, you're not left with a bad recovery, even if you go in the front bunker.