[Brad Klein]

Shivas, are you sure, of that? Worcester at 7,100 yards is tough to fathom, since the routing hasn't changed and it's now a squeeze at 6,750.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Shivas,

Wasn't the point of the width not equipment limitations but that the design of the greens opened up a number of hole locations, and that these locations determined the correct line?

I thought the whole point before was that the pros would pay the price for being out of position by having a heroic or at least very difficult shot. Now it seems like they pay the price by being in the woods...

If they're not going to change the ball, I can see the need for lengthening the course.

But at today's length, do you really feel the angles of attack don't matter?  Yesterday there were a lot of shots into 17 green that didn't hold. (I think it was 17.)

What makes you think they'd be able to hold the green if they came in from the wrong side (left) with that bunker and the angle of the green?

Mark

[redanman]

LOL Re: Worcester, I played the tips again last summer and it ain't no 7100 yards ........ great golf course, but no 7100

[PThomas]

Paul, it'd be a great point if the facts actually bore it out.  

They don't.

Given the straightness of the ball and the torque of modern drivers, the fairways at ANGC today probably play wider than the fairways Jones played in his day.

BOY, SHIV, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT
And the statistics also show that there have actually been MORE birdies on #11 and #17 this year in 3 rounds than there were last year in 4.  

The strategy has actually been brought back to ANGC.  That is, unless of course, you think strategy is smashing a driver as hard as humanly possible into a roughless, treeless plain, then lobbing a square-grooved wedge to the green that comes in so high that angles of attack simply don't matter.

If that's your definition of strategic golf, then ANGC at the turn of this century was definitely your kind of place....

SHIV, WHEN THE LEADER IS OVER PAR AT THE MASTERS THAT IS DEFINITELY US OPEN LIKE...IN FACT IT MAY EVEN BE MORE US OPEN LIKE THAN THE OPEN , CAUSE EVEN AT THE OPEN A FEW PEOPLE WIND UP UNDER PAR

OF COURSE , THE WEATHER HAS SOMETHING/A LOT?  TO DO WITH THE HIGH SCORING

ITS JUST THAT AN AGNC WITH MORE TREES AND ESP ROUGH IS NOT WHAT THE MASTERS USED TO BE ABOUT....ALTHOUGH, THAT ROUGH MAY ACTUALLY BE HOLDING DOWN SOME SCORES BECAUSE IT MAY BE SLOWING DOWN BALLS FROM GOING DEEPER INTO THE TREES!

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE COURSE BEING LENGTHENED...I'D PREFER THAT THE PROS USE A BALL THAT DOESN'T GO AS FAR, BUT SINCE WE DON'T HAVE THAT, THEN YES, THE ADDED YARDS ARE A GOOD THING....AS A COMPARISON, IN THE FINAL ROUND OF THE 1975 MASTERS JACK HIT A 1-IRON FROM 242 YDS INTO 15 THAT DAY

I JUST WONDER IF THEY'VE MADE THE COURSE SETUP TOO HARD, IF THEY SHOULD THROW SOME MORE WATER ON THE GREENS...AS i SAID BEFORE 0NE US OPEN A YEAR IS GOOD, BUT I FEEL LIKE I'M WATCHING IT 2 MONTHS EARLY WITH ALL THE TRAIN WRECKS OUT THERE

[wsmorrison]

"Our overall aim at Augusta National has been to provide a golf course of considerable natural beauty, enjoyable for the average golfer and at the same time testing for the expert player striving to better par.  We want to make the bogeys easy if frankly sought, pars readily obtainable by standard good play, and birdies, except on the par 5s, dearly bought.  Obviously, with a course as wide open as needed to accommodate the average golfer, we can only tighten it up by increasing the difficulty of play around the hole.  This we attempt to do during the tournament by placing the flags in more difficult and exacting positions and by increasing the speed of our greens.  Additionally, we try to maintain our greens at such firmness that they will not hold a misplayed shot.  Generally speaking, the greens at Augusta are quite large, rolling, and with carefully contrived undulations, the effect of which is magnified as the speed of the surfaces is increased"

--Bob Jones

Notice he spoke of the desired firmness, not only of the greens, but of "the surfaces."  He clearly embraced the width of the golf course and the natural beauty of it.  Width has been lost on some of the holes, but there remains a great deal of it--more than any other course I've seen.  I would need to study the golf course more than just a few days with 35,000 people around me, but I believe the narrowed corridors of 11 and 17 (and 18?) are not a good thing.  Clearly natural beauty has been subordinated by over-the-top maintenance with the lasered edges of bunkers, extremely manicured grounds, SubAir and extreme measures to maintain flowering plants during the Masters.  I would long for a higher degree of naturalism in the presentation of the golf course.  Yet, it is different and appealing to many but nearly impossible to pay for at any other course.

[PThomas]

Paul, you must not have gotten the memo either.

Par yesterday was 80.

Tiger shot the course record yesterday with -10.  He saved his -10 round with a superb par 5 at the 18th.

His eagle 4 on #13 was an eagle for the ages.

Too bad he 3-putted for birdie 5 on #15, or else it could have been even better.

What's not exciting about that?

challenging and difficult yes?

exciting, no

[Mark_Fine]

I can see it now - "Tiger wins 5th Masters at four over par!"

Tiger won his 5th Masters today in a survival of the fittest.  As train wreck after train wreck unraveled beneath the canopies of thousands of trees at the Augusta National arboretum, Tiger escaped the frey with a final round 74 (three shots clear of his nearest competitor).  Commenting after the round, Tiger said, “Next year I’m replacing my 5W with a chainsaw.  Not that there is much room now, but if they plant anymore trees, there will be no place to play golf.”  

I'm not sure Bobby Jones would be pleased and for goodness sakes, I hate when the announcers call this golf course the vision of Alister Mackenzie     He would have loved the firm and fast but hated that walls of 40 foot tall green hazards.  I'm not sure he would understand or appreciate this version of "golf".  

[redanman]

Redanman:  perhaps they've lost some land in the last 85 years.  

uh, no

[Mark_Fine]

Shivas,
The Old Course was Bobby Jones' inspiration for Augusta National.  

[Brad Klein]

Shivas, I have a list of about 20 mistakes in Frost's book. Now it's 21.

[tlavin]

I would guess that he'd be happy that the Masters was still a big deal after all those years, happy that ANGC was still considered an elite course and happy that the Masters could still be on the same golf course.  Whether he would be happy with, or would have consented to, the lengthening, strengthening and narrowing of the course is rank speculation, but there's no doubt that he would have to sublimate his artistic and architectural viewpoint to the power of the almighty dollar.

 Make no mistake about it, this whole changing of Augusta is driven by EGO AND MONEY.  This club, after all is ruled by the elite of corporate America.  The egos there want the golf course to be relevant in championship play and relevant includes difficulty.  The money men want to make sure that the championship is still held at ANGC because it is the money machine that makes the place a virtually free paradise for the moneyed elite.

Would Jones sublimate his architectural purity that we presume he had?  Probably, because he was the gentleman golfer, not the money man.  He might have rued the day, but the trees would probably still be planted and the tees would still be moved back and the championship would endure.

And then the week after the tournament, he'd take his pals out onto the course and play from the members tees and probably say that "this is the way" the course was meant to be played.

[RSLivingston_III]

I do know he would have been a vocal proponant of dialing the ball back.
He was a big supporter of the 1930 ball regulation.

[noonan]

Bobby Jones would like to see Appleby get a haircut.

[RSLivingston_III]

Just for fun I looked up the tournament in the June 1925 Golf Illustrated.
They said the course normally measured 6430, but with the "disks" pushed back it would be close to 6700 yards.
They have a picture of the par 3 10th that shows rather stunning bunkering.

[Doug Siebert]

"Our overall aim at Augusta National has been to provide a golf course of considerable natural beauty, enjoyable for the average golfer and at the same time testing for the expert player striving to better par.  We want to make the bogeys easy if frankly sought, pars readily obtainable by standard good play, and birdies, except on the par 5s, dearly bought.  Obviously, with a course as wide open as needed to accommodate the average golfer, we can only tighten it up by increasing the difficulty of play around the hole.  This we attempt to do during the tournament by placing the flags in more difficult and exacting positions and by increasing the speed of our greens.  Additionally, we try to maintain our greens at such firmness that they will not hold a misplayed shot.  Generally speaking, the greens at Augusta are quite large, rolling, and with carefully contrived undulations, the effect of which is magnified as the speed of the surfaces is increased"

--Bob Jones

Notice he spoke of the desired firmness, not only of the greens, but of "the surfaces."  He clearly embraced the width of the golf course and the natural beauty of it.  Width has been lost on some of the holes, but there remains a great deal of it--more than any other course I've seen.  I would need to study the golf course more than just a few days with 35,000 people around me, but I believe the narrowed corridors of 11 and 17 (and 18?) are not a good thing.  Clearly natural beauty has been subordinated by over-the-top maintenance with the lasered edges of bunkers, extremely manicured grounds, SubAir and extreme measures to maintain flowering plants during the Masters.  I would long for a higher degree of naturalism in the presentation of the golf course.  Yet, it is different and appealing to many but nearly impossible to pay for at any other course.

Sounds to me like he embraced width because it was necessary for average players, not because of the angles of approach it offered.  So maybe the members should complain about ANGC's narrowing, but not the pros.

[RSLivingston_III]

Strategic golf, as it was known in the 20's/30's, only marginally exists today. Without Long Iron and fairway wood approaches that run into greens there is almost no reason for ball placement. The ultra high trajectory high backspin shots that are accomplished by the pro's has vertually eliminated this part of the game.

[RJ_Daley]

All this little league speculation of "what would Bobby Jones do" (wwbjd)... come on and really go for it!

I say, if Bobby Jones were 45 years old in 1998, when the Tiger proofing, tree planting, rough growing and FW narrowing really kicked in,  BJ would have politely wished the committee well in their fine and charitable toon-a-mint, and quit the club and moved out to Mullen Nebraska and would have taken up an association with Dick Youngscapp, and Ben Crenshaw would have become his new, modern day favorite player.  

You want speculation on WWBJD;   I got your speculation, right here...  

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