The Fundamental ANGC Question

[Mike_Cirba]

I've read the usual to and fro about the changes to ANGC from both detractors and defenders.   This week, in talking about the changes with Jen, and telling her a little about the Masters history, it suddenly all became clear to me.

Here's the simple question that I believe is fundamental to what The Masters has historically been to all of those who love golf, and particularly those who love the golf course that Bobby Jones envisioned.

The question?

Would it be possible for a modern-day Jack Nicklaus to put on his 1986 back nine charge on today's course?

Frankly, I don't believe it would be possible, even from near superhuman Tiger Woods.

I'd enjoy hearing others weigh in who believe that the present golf course can be the stage for the type of emotion, drama, and heroics that we witnessed back then.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The only way such a charge could be made is if the narrowness, proliferation of trees, fairway cuts leaning towards the holes, and second cut were eliminated. Ditto the silly addition of length to certain holes (e.g. the 7th, to name just one).

One other observation -- I had the opportunity to attend a number of Masters -- pre/1997 Tiger and most recently. Completely different course and one that was such a giant in so many ways from both the architecture and what the tournament produced then.

[Tim Bert]

Didn't Els and Mickelson come pretty close to duplicating the spectacular back nine only 3 years ago?  I know they've continued to make changes, but that wasn't so long ago.  

I doubt it will be replicated this year because of the firm, fast, dry, and windy conditions - but I don't think it is out of the question in the future.  

[tlavin]

I've read the usual to and fro about the changes to ANGC from both detractors and defenders.   This week, in talking about the changes with Jen, and telling her a little about the Masters history, it suddenly all became clear to me.

Here's the simple question that I believe is fundamental to what The Masters has historically been to all of those who love golf, and particularly those who love the golf course that Bobby Jones envisioned.

The question?

Would it be possible for a modern-day Jack Nicklaus to put on his 1986 back nine charge on today's course?

Frankly, I don't believe it would be possible, even from near superhuman Tiger Woods.

I'd enjoy hearing others weigh in who believe that the present golf course can be the stage for the type of emotion, drama, and heroics that we witnessed back then.

I certainly think so.  We've had plenty of drama in the past few years, haven't we?  This year may not be the best barometer (pardon the pun) because the single biggest negative influence on scoring this year is meteoroligical, not architectural, factors, and the weather is simply brutal, both on the vertical game and on the putting greens.

But I could be wrong! Let's watch and see...

[C. Squier]

Does the question mean:

A) To comeback from 6 down on the back 9?

or

B) To shoot 30 on the back 9?


Option A is very possible.  The actual 9 hole score is just an arbitrary number IMO, but it makes option B likely impossible.  But a 6 stroke comeback should be exciting either way.  

CPS

[Mike_Cirba]

Tim,

I think the most recent changes, particularly the additional lengthening and addition of a ton of new trees, have caused the tipping point effect.  

It would be interesting to plot Nicklaus' 86 shots and see if he'd even have a remote chance.  For instance, his drive on 17, which he birdied, would have been deep in the evergreens on today's course.

[Tim Bert]

Tim,

I think the most recent changes, particularly the additional lengthening and addition of a ton of new trees, have caused the tipping point effect.  

It would be interesting to plot Nicklaus' 86 shots and see if he'd even have a remote chance.  For instance, his drive on 17, which he birdied, would have been deep in the evergreens on today's course.

Perhaps, but you are overlooking the obvious possibility that Jack might not have hit his drive there on 17 had there been evergreens.  Didn't Phil hit a wonderful recovery on 17 from the middle of nowhere yesterday?  He blew the birdie putt, but he gave himself a shot.

[Mike_Cirba]

Terry,

I'd love to be proven wrong, but how many years in a row is the strange scoring at ANGC going to be blamed on the weather?  

Cliff,

Yes, 30 on the back nine to roar to the top of the leaderboard from well back.

I don't think it can be done on today's course.

[CHrisB]

I remind you that just four years ago, Len Mattiace made such a charge, making an eagle and four birdies for a 31 on the back nine and a 65 overall--had he parred the 18th it would have tied the lowest final round by a winner in Masters history. And then the next year Mickelson shot 31 on the back nine to win his first Masters.

In my view, the course changes do not prevent an '86 Nicklaus charge--it's the course setup that allows or doesn't allow it. This year, the firm/fast/windy conditions will prevent it. But if the conditions are even a little softer and the Masters Committee sets up the course to allow scoring (moving a few tees up and having some accessible pins), then a charge is possible.

[Rick Shefchik]

Clint,

There are comebacks, and there are collapses. Faldo making up 7 shots on Greg Norman was nowhere near as exciting as Nicklaus's win in 1986. Will a player ever shoot a 30 on the back nine again to win the tournament? Not likely this year with the firm greens, but maybe in another year when there's been plenty of rain.

The thing is, it didn't happen very often back when Nicklaus pulled it off, either. It takes a special player doing something very extraordinary, and it probably has more to do with the player than the golf course.

So, to answer Mike's question, yes, I think it can happen again. Once every twenty or thirty years.

[Eric_Terhorst]

A great player could do it without birdies on the par 4s some on this site find offensive.

4-4-2-3-4-3-2-4-4 = 30

I would think there are several in today's field who are capable of this outburst.

[Jim Nugent]

How do they set up the tees for Sunday?  Up, back, some of both?  Do they have standard Sunday tees, similar to how they have standard Sunday pins on many greens?  

[John Kavanaugh]

The only thing that will keep Tiger from shooting 30 on the back nine to win is that it is now obvious he won't need to.  Looks like a smooth 34 will give him a three shot victory.  Of course I told you giys it was over Thursday morning when the wanna be greats all folded early.  Jack needed 30 is why Jack shot 30.

[noonan]

A monumental collapse is possible.

A monumental charge is not.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

"I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out"

"I went to the Masters and a US Open broke out"

The missing roars of the crowd through the pine trees was deafening.

Let's see what happens tomorrow.

Let's hope the weather isn't like this every year in the future.

[Tim Gavrich]

A monumental collapse is possible.

A monumental charge is not.

Can we have both?  It doesn't appear that way to me.  The balance that needs to be struck is too precarious.

I've always thought that majors should be battles for survival, and should consist of a set of challenges that goes above and beyond those of week-in-week-out tournaments.  In my opinion, majors should isolate the best player by forcing him (her, on the LPGA Tour) to weather the storm.  In all the tournaments won at -15 or lower, the best player turns out to be the one who makes the most late birdies.  Call me sadistic, but I think it's great fun to see who overcomes frustration and adversity.  Tiger did a good job of it despite the slip-ups at the end.  Appleby stopped the bleeding on an 18th hole that played as the toughest on the course.  They'll be in the final pairing tomorrow as a reward for their handling of unusually difficult conditions.  I think that that skill is frankly more valuable than the ability to go low (though both are undoubtedly important).

[JESII]

Ringer score for the week is 21 under---11 under on the back...

[Doug Siebert]

If no one shoots a low score tomorrow it will have less to do with the additional trees, second cut or added length, and more to do with the conditions.

It'll be because its F&F like it hasn't been there for years, and there's record cold.  What was the high today, 52?  With wind chills that never came close to 50, and much stronger winds than most Masters tournaments see, and from a different direction than they are accustomed to.

If it rained a bunch and was 75 degrees with light winds tomorrow, then the answer to your question is YES.  Narrow fairways don't bother players who are shooting 30, they are hitting it where they aim!

[PThomas]

no way if weather conditions stay the same

[Sean Leary]

I think the question is what the scores would have been like without the newly added trees and second cut. (I am Ok with the length for the most part)

I don't think the scores would have been that much lower, myself.  13 and 15's high scores today had nothing to do with the trees or second cut (which is where the so called back nine charges actually occur).  

U grooves didn't seem to help much today...

[peter_p]

   If I remember right there was only one sub-par back nine score shot today. There will be no charge tomorrow. After three days of a brutal set up you can't ease up too much without changing the character of the tournament. I feel sorry for the patrons.
   The Masters is saving a lot of money on crystal with only eight eagles.
   Might as well watch Perfect Storm to prepare myself for tomorrow.

[Rick Shefchik]

But where does it say "the patrons" need birdies and eagles to appreciate the golf tournament? If the Masters crowds are as knowledgeable as everyone claims they are, they should be enjoying the hell out of this year's Masters.

I feel sorry for them if they didn't pack warm jackets and long pants, but otherwise, they're getting a great show.

[Mike_Cirba]

You guys have got to be kidding.  

What a bunch of apologists for horrendous decisions regarding changes to the course at ANGC.  

Sheesh...

You talk about the weather as if it was 35mph gusts and driving, sideways rain off the Firth of Forth.   You talk about firm and fast as if it were Shinnecock's 7th green revisited.  

Isn't this the 3rd or 4th year in a row when Augusta suddenly had strange weather that affected the outcome??   It's early April people...I have news!  The Masters has always had unpredictable weather!  

This WAS THe Masters, where individual hole scores would range from eagle to triple bogey in the blink of an eye.   Where swings of 3-4 shots would routinely happen throughout the tournament.   Where Saturday was "Moving Day", meaning that a number of hot players firing with controlled agressiveness would shoot 65-67 to put themselves in position to contend down the stretch.

In the words of Led Zeppelin, "Does anyone remember laughter?"

Instead, we have this dour, funereal march through fairways narrowed so far by pines that the late afternoon sun doesn't permeate them.   We have train wrecks awaiting on virtually every hole where suddenly a 440 yard par four is a reasonable letup, and a hole without a chance at birdie, much less eagle, is the norm.

Have the 1st, 4th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 17th, or 18th holes EVER played as they do today???  

Does anyone remember an Eagle?   Does anyone recall a roar?

Perhaps I'm being a bit too nostalgic, but as I peruse a leaderboard with scores that look like the First Flight of the local club championship, I'm left to wonder what happened to what was once the most exciting tournament on the planet?

If the problem is technology, which I truly believe, then the solution as proposed by the 2007 Masters is even worse.

It's similar to extending the Tennis Court at Wimbledon, so that each player is 40 yards from the net.

In some terribly misguided attempt to have today's golfers use the same clubs that their forefather's used, what's been created is some farcical, bizarro world where 320 yard drives to 20 yard wide fairways, followed by 220 yard five irons are deemed to be somehow presenting historically accurate challenges on the same courses.

Yes, it's all because of the weather.  

Some year, we'll get it all right.

[ed_getka]

As I posted on another thread, I don't think they are too far off with the course. As Mike stated they seem to have reached a tipping point.  But when Tiger POSTS A NUMBER that is +3, and ends up in the final pairing, it seems more Bataan Death March than Masters magic.

[Kyle Harris]

The answer is, of course, no.

One thing that I have always understood about Augusta and the Masters was the idea was not necessarily for the course to physically play difficult, even for a PGA Tour player, but for it to mentally play difficult.

Shots such as the second on the 13th and 15th, the tee shot on 10, 11 and 17, and the approach on 14 were not designed to provide a severe physical challenge, but were design to provide enticement for the player to try and make something happened if they dared, and for a variety of options to make that thing happen. The trouble and challenge were apparent, the success was in executed at that moment and at that time (something I call shot urgency - is there no more important shot than the tee shot on 11 to set the stage for the next 2-3 holes?)

However, as I just told Mike on AIM, for every bit of temptation the golf ball makes possible (and coincidentally, risk removeed) the more Augusta removes the oppurtunity for that temptation to combat the ease at which the tempation can now be had.

THIS is the inherent problem I see right now.

Indeed, perhaps no better barometer exists as for the nature and extent to which technological equipment advances have impuned the game as to the changes and results of the changes to Augusta through the years.