[Robert Thompson]

Maybe the course is fine, and maybe Lloyd is right and the players aren't firing on all cylinders. Regardless, today was one of the dullest broadcasts of a Masters I've seen. And no, I don't expect anyone to shoot 30 on the back nine tomorrow with temperatures hitting a high of 55. I think 3-over par will win, and I think it is clear at this point who that winner will be.

Remember gents, one man in the entire field shot under par on Saturday. Does anyone actually think Sunday will be easier? Perhaps this is a case of renovation getting ahead of itself. After all, Fazio, under the clear guidance of Augusta's tournament committee, made significant changes, but it always rained. That seemed to equalize things. Now it is playing like they hoped and look what they've got -- a U.S. Open layout. Not that there is anything wrong with that necessarily, but that's why I tune into that penal death match in June. I want something else from the Masters -- and I don't have a problem with 10-under winning.

[Rick Shefchik]

Adam,

I apologize for mis-characterizing your objections to the current setup at Augusta National. My mistake.

I don't agree with you that the course has nearly eliminated heroic attempts and recoveries (Shivas has presented some very eloquent arguments to the contrary), but I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder.

[ed_getka]

[quote author=Shivas Schmidt


There are a lot of guys here who seem to think that difficulty and strategic are mutually exclusive.   That's bunk.

I don't know what tournament you guys were watching, but I saw a TON of strategy being exercised out there.  A TON.  I saw guys playing away from holes strategically.  I saw guys actually exercising their layup option on par 5s - not because they couldn't get there, but rather because they didn't think it was the smart play.  I saw guys aiming for sides of fairways.  I saw guys playing bump and runs into #13, trying to run it up the hill.  I saw guys shaping shots all over the place.  

I saw guys playing #11 as a doggone REDAN, for crying out loud!!

And you guys are whining about how hard it is?  You should be tickled pink at what you saw today.   To be perfectly honest, I saw more strategic play in one hour today than I see in an entire PGA Championship or US Open.      
 

 

Interesting perspective. I think the course is pretty close to being a great test for these guys. The problem I see is on a hole like #18 the last two days lots of guys are coming up short right. Do they all suck or is the margin of error for approaching that green too small?
    I just pray that they aren't wedded to all the trees and decide the next step is to flatten the green contours.
    60 golfers who ALL aren't playing very well? 77 strokes today  on average AFTER the chaff has been eliminated. Just an aberration due to weather?
    I hope there is a little excitement tomorrow because so far it has been a little like watching a train wreck in slow motion. I would much rather see someone shoot 67 and win tomorrow than to see the winner be the guy who avoids double bogey best. JMO.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Those one-year contracts can do that to a network.

BTW, I would be surprised if they didn't set up the pins in the easiest-possible locations, for example the one on 16 that yielded two aces back in 2004.

If they do set it up easy (easier?), and scores come down, is that going to upset everyone who thinks it's been a great tournament so far?

[Doug Siebert]

The reason why Shivas and I are really enjoying this is not because the scores are high, but because the tough conditions are forcing the pros to exhibit a wider range of skills to be successful (or avoid disaster) than they have been forced to utilize at the Masters for years.  Let alone the regular tour at Generic TPC #42, where the list of skills required for victory can be counted on one hand.

I for one would have no problem with them making the set up a bit easier, if they wanted to use some more accessible pin locations and maybe move up a few tees a bit to compensate for the cold and wind, no problem.  I'd really be pissed if they made the greens significantly softer than they were today to allow the pros to attack more.

Adding a bit of water to make sure they don't get even firmer is one thing, but I have a feeling that if some GCAers were in charge of the spigots they'd be dumping an inch or two of water on every green so they can see a bunch of birdies and eagles and hear those "roars"!

[John Chilver-Stainer]

If you check out the statistics on Master.org you can compare the statistics of the holes with 2006.

Eg
2006 Hole 11  490 yards Average 4.474 (after 4 rounds)
1x Eagle     6x Birdies    158 Pars    86 Bg    19 DB   4 rest

2007 Hole 11  505 yards Average 4.5397   (after 3 rounds)
1x Eagle    12xBirdies     117 Pars  102 Bg    18 DB  3 rest

Given the trees were first put in in 2004 then the lengthening of the fairway has increased the chances of getting a birdie by 200% and subsequently more ROARS than in 2006.  (Technology is still winning.)

If we study the statistics of the players rounds you’ll probably find the big difference this year is there are more bogeys than in previous years - but still a fair sprinkling of birdies and eagles.


That’s down mainly to the firm greens - what else do you expect?

Firm undulating greens means less balls close to the flag on the approach , which in turn means less puts go in. Nothing wrong with that.

Don’t worry, after a few years they’ll be ROARING in the Pars and everybody can get excited again.

[Matt_Sullivan]

I must admit I am part of Team Shivas on this. I enjoyed the third round telecast a lot and saw more shots and strategy than I saw in Phil's 31 (or whatever it was) on the back 9 in 2004. For example:

-- Tiger's pitch on 13: what greater indicator of his skill differential over the rest of the field? The only one of the leaders I saw, ahem, get it up, and make birdie

-- Zach Johnson's and Justin Rose's birdies on 15 after laying up down the right and hitting those neat wedges, compared to the difficulties faced by those taking the left side (and Tiger's decision to go for it in two and having a harder putt than the wedge shot he would have had if he layed up)

-- Appleby's triple: so well deserved (and I am an Aussie and an Appleby fan!). Crap tee shot, mishit second, daring but poorly executed third, average bunker shot, bad putt, worse putt, tap in -- seven. Not the course's fault

-- Hard flag on 16. See Appleby and Tiger decide to err on the left side and take the 40 footer (Appleby in particular did not look too disappointed with his tee shot); while Vijay and others take the flag on and miss. Looking for two they bring four squarely into the picture.

-- Zach Johnson on 17 and 18 with nice run ups; Vijay, Jerry Kelly and others carrying it too far on 18, going over and taking the consequences.

Would I like to see more birdies? Sure, I like seeing birdies, we all do. But the golf is interesting, to say the least; and it is not a US Open -- nobody has had the wedge out of thick rough back onto the fairway, or the hit and hope hack from thick greenside rough. And I don't think we are seeing the Masters of the future -- "normal" programming will be resumed as the weather changes (and, who knows, set ups are somewhat adjusted) in coming years.

All in all, I'm looking forward to watching the golf tomorrow -- although I fear that when I wake up (around 4am Beijing time/4pm in Augusta) Tiger will be striding to a 71 and victory. But, anyway, Go Stuey!!

[Kalen Braley]

The11th is 1 hole....how about a comparison of all the other holes??

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yeah, but Kalen, it's the poster child (along with 17) for tightening-by-planting.  And as it turns out, the planting hasn't reduced the birdie count at all.  It's actually doubled.

Again, all it's done is to take away the players' freedom to miss their intended tee-ball landing area by 50 yards and get away with it!

It's not about birdies, par, double bogies, or anything else. It's about how those scores get racked up. Seems like they're getting racked up US-Open style, not Masters style. "When I want the US Open, I'll watch the US Open!"

If you're not going backwards (score), you're going forwards (leaderboard). Actually, you can go backwards and still go forwards out there!

As an aside, these discussions have been great:
1. Each position well explored
2. Very few personal attacks
3. Each side mostly understands other side's position
4. No mention of M------- W--

Happy holidays everyone...

[Robert Thompson]

Mr. Schmidt: In regards to par "just being a number," I think the typical debate on this site is in regards to 20-under not being a bad number. I don't think the suggestion was that a 6-over blood bath on a course that typically rewarded a strong round was what was being suggested.

I'm glad you're having fun watching. I think you are in the minority in that regards.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shiv,

I wonder if all the holes show that tendency towards more birdies and bogeys?  If that is true, then this isn't just watching another par fest US Open, even if total scre remains near par.

Watching individual holes would be more interesting and variable. Isn't that what we want in a tournament?  Evey hole a possible 2-3 stroke swing hole?

 Looked at another (slightly more depressing) ways -

Is the only way the architecture can affect the outcome is by causing more bogeys to offset the inevitable birdies along the way?  

Do tree lined fw increase "definition" and tee shot comfort, allowing better play, which leads to birdies, but more bogeys when they miss the fw?

[PThomas]

I don't know if I'll ever understand the reasoning behind the statement that "par is just a number"...literally, yes it is, of course...

but it IS an important number.....it will never go away, it IS an easy way to keep track of how people are doing relative to each other, and i think it does make a difference  - even subconciously - affect how people play a hole

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW,  to answer Cary's original question, I have long held the theory that the national pastime is bellyaching. Some of us just use golf and golf course architecture as a prop to participate in the festivities.

[Eric_Terhorst]

It's not about birdies, par, double bogies, or anything else. It's about how those scores get racked up. Seems like they're getting racked up US-Open style, not Masters style.

Mark,
Shivas and Doug and Matt Sullivan have labored with their examples and comments above to show how the play we're seeing this weekend is distinctly NOT US Open-like.  Still, it seems like what we've heard from you and your colleagues can be summed up as "it feels like a US Open because the playing corridors are artificially narrowed and they're making bogies."  I have seen all weekend maybe 1 or 2 shots sideways out of trees.  Yet even though it was months ago, I can think of two or three hacks from the rough we witnessed at Winged Foot--on Sunday, by the contenders!  
If this is US Open like, where is the reigning US Open champion?  He's making 9 on 15, not because of the trees or the rough, but because he couldn't execute a pitch over the pond!  I recall those occasional big numbers at 13 and 15 happening at least once or twice in every Masters, long before the most recent changes.  

The playing corridors and the new trees had nothing to do with Ogilvy's "racking up" a quad, or with Appleby's snap hook and "comedy of errors" (his term) on 17, or with Mickelson's slice into the trees LEFT at 11 on Friday, or with Tiger and Vijay's water balls on 12, etc, etc.  
Are you determined to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse?  

[Tim Bert]

Shivas,

Excitement isn't defined by statistics or numbers (and this is an  think the real judge of excitement will be the crowd today.  Will we hear the roars is what I want to know.  I love watching one guy putt or hit a shot and then hearing a roar from somewhere else while I'm left to wonder what just happened.

Weir said the grounds sounded like a morgue yesterday, not exactly a ringing endorsement from a previous winner.

Regardless of how they set the pins and the tees today, they need the crowd.  I would love to see them set 13 & 15 up for eagles, and keep the rest of the course playing as it has all week.  They can keep the scores moving generally in the wrong direction if they want, but throw a few out there that can be had.

[Tim Bert]

Agreed, but I'm not talking about 1997 and I'm not talking about a rout (yet.)  If Tiger wins by 5 today, I'm not expecting roars (unless he does so by posting 31 or 32 on the back.)

If the field stays tight and the crowd is nowhere to be heard, we've got a very different issue than you cite in your 1 year example.

I think I heard only two players shot better than 36 on the back nine Saturday.  Anyone care to guess what the low back nine will be today?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Only have a minute, but not sure what you mean about Tiger...2004 sure was loud.

Eric and Shivas, as to 15 the layup dunks were interesting examples of what there is less of: paying the price for being out of position.  The proper layup was to the right.  Layups center and left faced a much higher chance of water.

How many of those types of decisions have been taken away?

Shivas, I concede the point regarding birdies / eagles, but for me that was part of the risk / reward equation.  I liked seeing guys self-immolate due to poor decision making, and I loved seeing guys rewarded. So, sure, more low scores, but more high scores -- and NOT generated the way they are today: successful vs. failed pitch-and-putt executions...

Nicklaus going for it on 15 in 1986, Faldo on 13 in 1996, how many of those heroic shots have been lost? (13 you could say, "what's different?" But it seems like the players just removed the "strategic thinking" and went on some kind of automatic pilot: play ultra-defensive.)

Do either of you think Chip Beck would be excoriated today if he took the same play on 15 as he did back in 1993?

[Tim Bert]

I suspect that the members can appreciate a scrambling par, they probably make them all the time.  That's why they gets claps and not roars.  Roars are generally reserved for the players pulling off something special or heroic.

I haven't once complained (publicly) about the trees.  I don't see a problem with bumping up the tees and providing "easy" pin locations on 13 and 15 to get the blood flowing.  I think the 30-50 degree temperatures and the wind are causing as much of the problem here as the course changes.  They have the ability to respond to that by backing off full throttle.

[PThomas]

Do either of you think Chip Beck would be excoriated today if he took the same play on 15 as he did back in 1993?

Chip Beck was a genius who was ahead of his time.  

Seriously ...

Conditions dictate decisions.  He made the wrong play then.  Yesterday, 15 played dead into the wind and nobody could get there in two

i thought Chip made the right play..he felt there was NO WAY he could get home in two, so he layed up...he hit a crappy wedge and only made par, that was his mistake

[Mike_Cirba]

If they expect someone to shoot 30 in hard and fast conditions, then frankly, they're fools!  

Wasn't it firm and fast in 1986?  I seem to recall that the course looked very shiny.

[PThomas]

His career thereafter bears out your position, Paul.  

the judge says your last point is irrelevant, Mr. Schmidt

[PThomas]

You're right, partly.  It's not dispositive of anything, but it is relevent.

I guess I'll just stick with the fact the he could have reached it with a 3 wood, but wussed out of the tourament with 4 holes to play and another guy got to wear the Green Jacket instead.

Shiv - I thought I remember it was ouitof reach for him, but I could be wrong on that

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