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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« on: September 12, 2002, 05:21:19 AM »
I have just finished a golf course on a peat bog here in Norway.  

The fairways are in the middle of the bog which we have dug out and replaced with rock which we have then covered with topsoil to create the fairways.

Some places I have placed the tees out in the bog.  This means that from the yellow (the longest) sometimes the player has a carry of 70-110 yards to reach the fairway.  The red tees are all placed no further from the start of the fairway than 30 yards.  

Some of the Norwegians that were involved with the project (and beginners at golf) complained that the course looks like it is going to be too hard.  I had a Scottish team finishing the course and not one of them thought it was penal.

My question is this:

Can you really class a 110 yard carry penal?  If 110 yards is penal and you struggle with that distance should you not play from the red tees?

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

THuckaby2

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2002, 06:17:30 AM »

Quote
If 110 yards is penal and you struggle with that distance should you not play from the red tees?
Brian.

YES.  End of issue... or should be.  The problem is, many people for whom this is a problem WILL play those tees.

But while any carry counts for rating purposes (it effects the bogey golfer's play of the hole), 110 yards is really not that bad... get it to 170 and then you have problems.  

Some people don't like forced carries PERIOD.  You know the Good Doctor was certainly against them.  But hey, I doubt he ever carved a course out of a bog!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2002, 06:30:35 AM »
Brian Phillips:

Good question. From my experience, a 100 yard carry is awfully difficult, even terrifying, for a large percentage of people who play the game.

A while back I reported on a study conducted in Florida where 800 tee shots were measured and the average drive was 140 yards. Many people here thought that was ridiculous, but from what I've seen at local munis, I doubt the test results were far from the mark.

We tend to forget how difficult golf is for many people, especially people who didn't start playing when they were young.

So, it depends on the course clientele. If it is public and includes many beginning type players, a 100 yard carry will often be very intimidating.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2002, 06:34:45 AM »
Well said, Tim - and I didn't mean to diminish that in my post above.

I just think in the course in question... well... Brian had certain choices he had to make and what he did is not bad.  Hell, for many golfers put ANYTHING in front of the tee and they tighten up and top it into it.  It doesn't matter if the carry is 110 or just plain 10 - the fact they are forced to get the ball airborne causes them to screw up.

Back tees with 110 yard carries though... well... his best point is indeed to stress these are back tees and those for whom such will be a problem should not play them.  People will, but they will have been forewarned.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2002, 06:41:50 AM »
YES!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2002, 08:33:02 AM »
I this day and age when equiptment has apparently been designed to get the ball airborne I think that if someone thinks this minor carry is penal should either play the forward tee or take up bowling. Perhaps another tee ahead of the bog could be added for the very few who don't want to step up to the plate and embrace the challenge of the forced carry.

Take Pebble Beach for example; There are many forced carries and most, if not all, are alot more than 110 yds. Has this diminished it's appeal? NOT. Do under-qualified golfers pay and play there everyday? YES.

Since Norway has so few courses, I assume one can't just say "go play somewhere else" since that might require a two day drive. Does Norway have the license that Germany has, where prior to access one must pass the test or have a handicap low enough to deserve a tee time?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2002, 08:59:40 AM »
Brian,

Is there only two sets of tees; in the bog and the reds?  Is there not another option, such as what we call whites in most places?  All things being equal, a 110 yard carry seems very reasonable.  If you can't deal with it you need to play from a different tee.  I think when push comes to shove this is an issue to balance.  Is playability for the hacker the most important thing?  Of course not.  But as you well know it is very important to provide options to the lesser player.  A day spent losing all your brand new balls is a poor idea.  I find it is important to get the 'heart beat up' with a testing tee shot onec in a while.  If you remove those tees you will be sort of going against the Pete Dye dictum which is to provide the player with a chance to make that once in a lifetime shot over a hazard that they thought they might never carry.  110 yards, that's kid stuff, Tiger would have to hit a 1/2 sand wedge to clear that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2002, 09:38:21 AM »
Brian

I was once on the committe of a club where the lady members successfully petitioned to have a 30 yard patch of rough in front of one tee mown to fairway height as some of the old dears were having trouble making the "forced carry."

Be prepared to build another tee (Pink perhaps?) 35 yards in front of the Red tee and in front of the bog.

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

stat_man

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2002, 01:13:29 PM »
I always thought of a "penal" hole as one that severly penalizes a just barely bad shot (I'm sure you guys have debated this, so I apologize as a newish member if this isn't right).   A drive that fails to carry 110 yards isn't a "barely bad" shot, it is a bad shot that deserves to be penalized, especially if there are forward tees where one can play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

angie

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2002, 07:42:25 PM »
stat_man: i agree with you. to me penal means something more than "difficult." 110 carries may be difficult for some or even for many, but not for all -- and a ball hit with a driver that normally flies less than 110 means that the golfer SHOULD BE hitting from the forward tees. sure, if you chunk it or top it, you may not make a 110 carry at any particular moment, but that situation, as you point out, deserves penalty.
my advice to the course owner is that the course book or score card should state that persons who do not routinely break 95 are advised to play from the forward tees and leave it at that, but don't let people start calling them "ladies" tees. after a while the players will sort themselves out according to the advice or according to their egos, and remember that you can't please all of the people all of the time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

angie

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2002, 07:43:36 PM »
... or it might mean the golfer should get a new driver  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2002, 11:01:21 PM »
Angie,

You made a very good point about not calling the tees 'ladies tees'.  The problem in Norway (the land of Vikings) is that the some men hate admitting that they cannot and should not play off the yellow tees.  

One thing we are going to try is changing the colours of the tees to something else.  Hopefully this will help.

The owner of the construction company said to me that I had created a course too difficult for the local people that have never played golf.  To give you an idea...every single person I had on site who operated machinery had NEVER seen a golf course!!  I built the course with men that had NEVER seen or even been on a golf course.

I explained to the owner of the construction company that I didn't ask people to play off the back tee, that was their own choice.  I also stated that I was designing a golf course not for the next two years but for the next ten years when hopefully the town will have improved it's golfing standard.

I am going to publish on this site pictures and my drawings from the site soon probably in the next few weeks so that you will get a better idea of the site.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

TomSteenstrup

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2002, 11:12:51 PM »
Brian, it sounds like quite a quest you have been on. Bringing golf to the savage vikings...  :)

A 110 yard carry is penal. How can you argue against that? The only purpose is to penalize failed drives, isn't it?

But, as a higher-handicapper myself, I can say that 110 yards is long but not excessive, and like mdugger says, the 'heart beat up'-factor is important. It is one that I believe your golfing community will grow to love as they play there more and more.

I'll bet you that in a couple of years - maybe even sooner - the same guys that critized the carry will be the same guys that call it the best hole on the course. That's the crazy thing about us hackers, we can't play and still we want to attempt those difficult carries... :D

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2002, 05:38:39 AM »
To me a "penal" shot is one for which there are no strategic options - either you excute or you're in some kind of tapioca -either deep or benign.

Length doesn't change that concept - only the degree of difficulty (usually).

Example #1:  The second shot on Pine Valley #8 is between 50 and 100 yards but woe unto those who don't excute.  Either you hit the green or you have a serious problem.

It was about this hole that Bernard Darwin was referring when he wrote, "It is all well and good to penalize a poor shot.  However, the sentence of eternal damnation should be reserved for a higher tribunal than a greens committee."

Example #2:  #17 at TPC Sawgrass.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mdugger(again)

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2002, 10:36:36 AM »
A little more probably could stand to be said here.  

Brian,
      That sounds like QUITE a group you are building the golf course for.  Talk about a step back in time.  You are a veritable Tom Morris to all those people.  You mentioned you are building a course that will be built for ten years down the road, how about telling them 100 years!
      What a bummer it would be if in ten years your golf course was a pushover.  I think it was Robert Hunter that said golf would be a boring game if every hole was flat and lined with walls that kept a sliced or hooked drive in the fairway.  Give the players an obstacle to overcome, isn't that what Mac said?  But always provide an alternate route.  That you have done.  
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2002, 11:54:13 AM »
Brian:

Personally I have never been a big fan of forced carries but at 70 to 110 yards even I would be had pressed to think that is too hard.

You get up into the 170+ range then it probably is too hard for most golfers.

My home in Florida is on the 18th hole of the golf course.  From the white tees it is about 385 yards, from the Blues 420 yards and from the back tees it is about 440 yards.  The last 100 yards of this hole is over a natural canal 100 yards wide, which comes right up to the green.  

I watch people playing and it seems like almost all must lay up on the second shot.  (I'm sure this is an exageration it just seens like that).  However if you analyze what it means for the average golfer an 18 handicap playing from the white or blue tees needs almost a perfect drive in a perfect position to have a chance at the green and even then you are looking at a carry that is anywhere from 170 yards up to 210 yards over water.  It is hard for many golfers to carry the ball that far in the air.

This is when a forced carry becomes too penal.

70 -110 yards should not be a problem.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2002, 12:18:47 PM »
In a way I think you answered your own question Brian.
"If 110 yards is penal and you struggle with that distance should you not play from the red tees?"  

But this question also depends on where these forced carries come in the hole sequence and how frequent they are.  Obviously, you shouldn't have the forced carry of even a short 100 yards on the first tee, ideally.  (I assume irretrievable or unplayable) If the carry is across an unmowed but findable area that is playable yet still mildly penal to get the shot up and out, that is a better circumstance.  The back tee players certainly should not top the ball as frequently as the forward tee players, and if the shot comes after they are well into the round, and the demand for the forced carry off the tee, into a bog that is unplayable, is not overdone more than once or twice, and there is a properly design/constructed drop area that is to the side and not another forced carry to any degree, then hey, that's golf! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lester George

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2002, 02:25:19 PM »

Brian,

Just a few observations for what hey are worth:

   1. Courses almost ALWAYS look more difficult than they are when they are new.  People (especially those who do not design) have a hard time visualizing how far things are and how that applies to their game.  
   2. You are the expert.  Do not let them second guess you.  You know what is appropriate, and you most likely put apprpriate length and risk in for all skill levels.
   3. When the course opens you will be able to quietly remind them that percieved difficulty is not the same as true difficulty, and thats why you were not concerned at the end of construction.

The distances you mentioned here do not necessarily sound that penal to me.  Drive on. Once played, some will ask how you can add length and the whole discussion will become moot to you.

Good Luck.  Best Regards.

Lester




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2002, 03:10:12 PM »
A carry-shot is penal by definition. But aside from that 110 yards is not asking too much from the mid-level player.

Other factors, however, should be considered:

--Any elements (first hole jitters, last hole pressue, tall vegetation obscuring landing area) that might cause a player to overswing will add to the relative (psychological) difficulty of the carry.

--How many of these carries are there on the course? One or two carries a round is reasonable, but stacking them up can get into the player's head and give the course a "reputation."

--How wide or accepting are the fairways? Does the player also have to consider accuracy to a great degree? Making the player think about flush contact as well as not slicing can create disastrous results.

--Are the carries on par threes, fours, or fives. A carry on a medium to short par four is usually not a problem, but a mandated carry on a long par four where the player already feels he or she needs to bust one to get it there in two can cause overswings and more disaster.

--Wind patterns can turn a 110-yard carry into a 150-yard + carry.

Having played many rounds with my father-in-law - who shoots in the 95-105 range - on golf courses in Florida where wetlands often intersect holes, I've seen firsthand the psychological effects that even short carries can cause.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »
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Steve Sailer

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2002, 05:38:55 PM »
If you are building a golf course in a bog, you've gott do what you gotta do to get it built at a reasonable cost. Obviously, forced carries are cheaper than constructing dry land.

Still, on courses aimed at the mass market, where carries aren't a necessity due to the abundance of natural wetlands, I've never liked short-medium forced water carries directly in front of the tee because they don't challenge good players at all, but beat up on bad players who are penalized enough just by their own erraticism. Building a lot of short forced carries so that the bad player shoots 112 instead of 105 while the good player shoots 75 either way is kind of a waste.

And, saying the bad players should just go play the 5200 yard (or whatever) Red tees is no solution, since many of these guys can hit it 200-250 off the tee, but still foozle several tee shots each round that only go 50 yards. That's penalty enough. I'd much rather see water used as a diagonal hazard offering a risk-reward dilemma than as a club to beat poor golfers.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2002, 09:09:43 PM »
I've always tried to get the fairway back to within 65 yards of the most forward tee.  This is about the distance I could throw a golf ball when I still had a good arm.  As several people have commented, though, ANY carry is likely to produce trouble if the carry is over unplayable terrain.

We're trying to find a happy medium on this issue for our design in Palm Desert.  The starkness of the landscape is a big attraction of the property, but we don't want to make the course unfriendly to older golfers who have the wherewithal to join the club.

Yet, at the same time, I wonder if a course can be considered "great" by good players if it provides no dramatic carries?  (Yes, the back tees can be much more difficult than the forward tees, but it's hard to imagine that a course could be bipolar like this.)  I'd hate to think that making the course playable will handicap its chances of being considered outstanding, but sometimes I wonder.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2002, 11:11:52 PM »
Tom Doak- May I recomend a trip to Pinon Hills. Ken Dye utilized the rugged terrain extremely well using the natural canyons as huge carries from the back tees, yet the forward sets have incrementaly less and less. Only on one hole is there a forced carry that causes the weaker player to complain and it is on an approach to a short par 4. The actual carry from the end of the fairaway happens to be just under your 65 yd number. But it is truely all carry with very little room to bounce forward due to the slope of the grass in front of the green.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what dist. does a shot become penal?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2002, 04:29:22 AM »
Good to hear from you Lester,

It is always nice having you and Jeff as well as Tom looking over my shoulder guiding me through the mist.  I really appreciate your time.

I am moving to Edinburgh on the 25th and will send you my address if you can drop me an e-mail someday.  It would be great if any of you guys could make it over for a long weekend or something..even give a short lecture at the college.

Cheers

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf