Pacific Dunes vs Augusta National - Match Play

[BCrosby]

It was meant as a negative.

To conclude that a hole at ANGC is inferior to another hole because it isn't penal enough, is to misunderstand pretty profoundly what is going on at ANGC.

Bob  

[Sean Leary]

Mike,

That length on 1 you used is from the middle tee at PD, not the back.  I believe it is 380 or so from the back tee, and is a very tough tee shot.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

You've told me how AN is the more DIFFICULT hole - but I knew that already.

But difficulty doesn't equal greatness....

What I'm not getting is why AN is clearly a greater hole.  Greatness includes FUN to play, in my world.  Now of course AN is that, in spades, just due to the goosebump factor and where one is and what's involved in playing those shots.  But I kinda enjoy the shots faced at PD1 also - and don't find them as easy as you do, btw.  In any case I think PD1 is a very fun hole to play, and AN1 must be a very difficult hole to play.

I'm willing to concede that AN1 wins this - but as I say what turns it is the goosebump factor.

In a Muccian world which is better though?  Pat feels no goosebumps and beauty matters not.  Perhaps surprisingly though Pat does like quirk, at least when it's not too silly.

And I think Pat might call this a half, if he could get way from the need to prove to the world that Augusta is better than this forum thinks, that is.  So he'll never admit it here... But he might in private.

THis is why I'm having a hard time understanding why AN1 is CLEARLY better... I think it's close, at least.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

It was meant as a negative.

To conclude that a hole at ANGC is inferior to another hole because it isn't penal enough, is to misunderstand pretty profoundly what is going on at ANGC.

Bob  

The penal nature was only being applied to the bunkers found on the hole, not the hole itself.  The hole is not long and can be reached in 2 and I was in no way implying the hole is better because its more penal.  That being said, while I've never played ANGC, from what I've seen on TV and aerials, I think there is more strategy to PD #3...but that just my opinion and would guess most will disagree with me.

[Mike Hendren]

Sean,

Thanks for that correction.  All that means, however is that all you low-cappers will have to take a a little off the sand-wedge on your approach!

Tom,

The fairway bunker at ANGC must be dealt with, with a better line to the green if one can skirt it.   How much more strategy do you need?

As for "quirk," you must stand near the first green at ANGC to believe it.

Mike

[Ron Farris]

 
 Winner      Overall                    
1)  PD         PD 1 UP
2)  PD         PD 2UP
3)  PD         PD 3UP
4)  PD         PD 4 UP
5)  PD         PD 5 UP
6)  PD         PD 6 UP
7)  PD         PD 7 UP
 PD         PD 8UP
9)  PD         PD 9UP
       DORMIE
10)  PD        PD 10 & 8 Winner, Lets play in anyway
11)  PD        Public Access - Winner by Default
12)  AN        Brings even the pros to their knees
13)  PD        Claudia VS Heather  (basically it doesnt matter)
14)  AN        I love this hole (no bunkers! Wild green)
15)  AN        Train wrecks  - I cant swim- Wow
16)  PD         Public Access - Winner by Default
17)  PD         Public Access - Winner by Default
18)  PD         Public Access - Winner by Default

Also, am I comparing an apple to an orange: Fescue grass to overseeded bermudagrass with Rye.  That is like asking: Who is greener - Tom Doak, Alister MacKensie, or Martians?
I never met Alexander or Martians.  I have never seen Tom severly hung-over, so it is a coin toss.
(Trying to keep it light)

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

The fairway bunker at ANGC must be dealt with, with a better line to the green if one can skirt it.   How much more strategy do you need?

As for "quirk," you must stand near the first green at ANGC to believe it.

Mike

Fair enough.  AN#1 it is.

 

[T.J. Sturges]

Very interesting thoughts presented here.  Below is my match play (and I have played both courses).

1.   PD 1 up
2.  halved  PD 1 up
3.  3  AN     All square
4.  PD    PD 1 up
5.  AN    All square
6.  PD   PD 1 up
7.  PD   PD 2 up
8.  Halved   PD 2 up
9.  PD   PD 3 up
10.  AN   PD 2 up
11.   PD   PD 3 up
12.  AN  PD 2 up
13.  AN   PD 1 up
14.  PD   PD 2 up
15.  AN  PD 1 up
16.  Halved  PD 1 up
17.  PD  PD 2 up
18.  PD  PD 3 up

TS

[John Kavanaugh]

Ted,

The question I have about 14 is that when watching on tv the pros are able to use the green contours to work the ball close to the hole like on few holes I have ever seen.  Is this possible for mortals or do you also need the back Sunday pin to make the hole great.

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's my match play, having played PD and walked virtually every inch of ANGC.

1) ANGC (The green is probably the 2nd wildest out there)
2) PD (even)
3) Even
4) PD 1-up
5) PD 1-up
6) PD 1-up (hard to pick tween 2 great holes)
7) PD 2-up (I had to suck in my gut to walk down the 7th fairway at ANGC and still got sap on my hips...silliness)
PD 3-up
9) PD 3-up

10) PD 2-up
11) PD 3-up
12) PD 2-up
13) PD 1-up
14) Even
15) ANGC should be going 1 up at this point, but the tree plantings are horrendous...still even
16) ANGC 1-up
17) ANGC 1-up
18) Even

That feels about right.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm really surprised that the 18th at Pacific gets so much love..I thought the greenside turbo bunker is one of the most over the top man made abominations I had ever seen.  The thought of someone with weak legs walking up that finishing hill on 18 at Augusta and still having the knees to stay steady over the ball is some luck and genius in the routing.  I do prefer the old Sunday low pin placement and thought the Sandy Lyle bunker shot was architecture presented at its very best.

What is it about the 18th at Pacific that is done so well?

[T.J. Sturges]

John,

The 14th green at ANGC is a masterpiece.  I think the 14th is a very good golf hole.  I give the nod on the 14th to PD because I love the hole.  A great one shot hole on the top of the primary dune.  A terrifying shot in the wind.  I like the 14th at AN, but I LOVE the 14th at PD.

TS

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

The 14th green at ANGC is a masterpiece.  I think the 14th is a very good golf hole.  I give the nod on the 14th to PD because I love the hole.  A great one shot hole on the top of the primary dune.  A terrifying shot in the wind.  I like the 14th at AN, but I LOVE the 14th at PD.

TS

Ted,

Could the fact that the 14th at ANGC is the only hole without bunkers help sway your vote.

[Bob_Huntley]

I was going in order but breaking down by par is a worthy excersise also.  Actually it works for me either way.  I think number 4 at ANGC is the weakest hole on the course but still don't believe any par 3's at Pacific are better.  

John,

I have both played ANGC and have been a spectator, oops Patron, at the event.

How you could possibly say that No. 4 is the weakest hole on the course is beyond me. I am sure that one of our statistics chappies will point out that the scoring average for the hole on the first two days of play, posits it as other than weak.


Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

For me weak means the hole I would least care to play most.

[Bob_Huntley]

John,

I see your point now, but not from your original post.

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I see your point now, but not from your original post.

Bob

On further review I could be wrong.  I do enjoy hitting cut driver on 240 yd par 3's and the green does have some exciting recovery positions.  Looking at number 7 I am afraid my only option would be driver, 3 wood, sand shot and start putting away.  I'm afraid that 7 may not appeal to any aspect of my game at all.  I'm not sure how long of a 450 yds 7 plays but with the front and back bunkers I might go 0 for hitting the green in 100 tries.

[Mike Hendren]

If Pacific Dunes is even in the same league as Augusta National Golf Club, I have wasted a lot of time on this dad-gummed web-site over the past several years and clearly don't "get it." Give me 10 rounds to split and I get in 180 holes at Augusta.  

BTW, Pacific Dunes is a very good golf course.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Just to show that I am not a total Doache Bag I give the 7th at Pacific the nod over the 7th at ANGC...I just can't support the fronting bunkers at Augusta.

[Mike_Cirba]

If Pacific Dunes is even in the same league as Augusta National Golf Club, I have wasted a lot of time on this dad-gummed web-site over the past several years and clearly don't "get it." Give me 10 rounds to split and I get in 180 holes at Augusta.  

BTW, Pacific Dunes is a very good golf course.

Mike

Mike,

It's blondes, redheads, brunettes, tall, short, medium, full-figured, sleek, etc.

It's not that you don't get it.  It's that you get something else than some of us and visa versa.  

It's all good.  WIth the possible exception of those dadgummed planted trees.

[Eric Johnson]

Which version of ANGC should we use for the comparison?

The one in play today and this weekend.

SO, does that mean you are evaluating Pacific Dunes from the tippy-tips?  That would be the tournament tees of PD vs. the toonamint tees of ANGC.

If that is the case, I think one should re-evaluate their comments re: PD #1 being most folks don't even know where the back tee sits.

[Bryan Izatt]

I'm confuddled about the ratings of the #13's.  Three of the four who've done the hole by hole thing think that ANGC wins this matchup.  I don't get it.  Number 13 at PD has got to be one of, if not the best hole on the course.  A world class hole.  ANGC 13 looks from TV to be a fun hole, but it seems to require only one type of tee shot - a draw - to a narrow landing area.  The risk reward second is most likely not an option for most of us most of the time.  The green does look really interesting.  I understand that almost every hole at Augusta is probably scoring high on the goose bump factor, because of the Masters and the exclusivity, but is that really part of an architectural matchplay?

[Kalen Braley]

Eric,

Which back tee box are you referring to. The back tee on the card, or the hidden back tee??  

[Mike Hendren]

I'm confuddled about the ratings of the #13's.  Three of the four who've done the hole by hole thing think that ANGC wins this matchup.  I don't get it.  Number 13 at PD has got to be one of, if not the best hole on the course.  A world class hole.  ANGC 13 looks from TV to be a fun hole, but it seems to require only one type of tee shot - a draw - to a narrow landing area.  The risk reward second is most likely not an option for most of us most of the time.  The green does look really interesting.  I understand that almost every hole at Augusta is probably scoring high on the goose bump factor, because of the Masters and the exclusivity, but is that really part of an architectural matchplay?

Bryan, the 13th at PD is a beautiful, outstanding golf hole, but the tee ball there will accomodate any number of shots with no real advantage to be gained by favoring either side of the fairway.  It's a straight forward golf hole.  

The tee ball at Augusta's 13th  is the ultimate strategic challenge:  skirt the hazard and be rewarded with a shorter shot into the green at a preferred angle off a flatter lie (a threefold advantage).  An awful lot of tee shots wind up right in the pine straw, which creates a real dilemma for the tournament participant who feels like he'll lose a shot to the field by playing safely for a 5.  Sue me, but there are a couple of strategic pines over there that are perfectly placed to compound the issue.  Put the pin on the right and the hole requires a draw from the tee and fade from the fairway to get anywhere close in two.  How good is that?  

Then again, even after reaching the green in two there's no guarantee of a birdie given the contouring.  For the player who lays up, real talent and steel nerves are required to get the third close, regardless of the hole placement.  Heck, I even like Jack's little swale.  

Mike

[Mark Bourgeois]

One of the things that gets lost in these "hole by hole" comparisons is that under the original design, even the circa 1960 design, holes were intended to play differently and easier or harder depending on hole locations.  The idea was "strategic" and intended to open up a lot of options that demanded choices of the highly-skilled golfer according to the weather conditions, tee and hole locations, and golfer's abilities on that day.

That type of design also enabled the course to provide both a championship test and an "every day" members' test. From Pat's comments, I gather it retains the latter; however, how can anyone say it retains the former to the same degree as 50 years ago?

Many holes at ANGC still retain elements of choice today, but less so than in the past.  Many options have been removed.

A better exercise would be to assess ANGC against the intent of Jones and MacKenzie to provide a strategic design in the manner of TOC, instead of a random course.  That's what they set out to accomplish, and that's the standard the course should be judged against.

For the pros on 1 tee, here's the list of strategic options:
Hit it as far up the hill as possible, left of the bunker, but not too far left to hit into trees.

It doesn't seem to play too long on the card to lay up short of the bunker, but I can't recall any participant consciously making that decision. Short or in the bunker is Bogeyville.

Aside from the lack of choices to the pros, a drive to Position A left of the fairway bunker can bring the greenside bunker front left into play, not exactly a "Position A-quality" Position A. It retains the punishment of the original design, but the former Position-A choice of driving to the right is gone.

Interestingly, of the drive, Bobby Jones said, "A drive down the right side of the fairway is only important when the wind is behind and the hole is cut immediately behind the bunker at the left front of the green.  The player who drives down the left side must play his second either over the bunker or into the slopes which tend to direct the ball off the right side of the green."

Today it's almost like they're punished for executing the tee shot demanded when the flag is in that position.  From an executional rather than strategic perspective, though, it's a perfect opener.

Mark

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