Pacific Dunes vs Augusta National - Match Play

[John Kavanaugh]

It is not required that you have played Augusta National to participate in this thread.

On my card I only have Pacific beating ANGC on number 4.  What about you?

A nice ANGC reference link: http://www.masters.org/en_US/course/index.html

A fine Pacific link: http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/p_course.cfm

[JESII]

Do you want to go in order? Or the better method of breaking down the courses by par (ie: Par 3's against 3's etc...)? I think they might have different numbers of each par so that might complicate it, bu how could you compare a 3 to a 5 if it happened?

[John Kavanaugh]

I was going in order but breaking down by par is a worthy excersise also.  Actually it works for me either way.  I think number 4 at ANGC is the weakest hole on the course but still don't believe any par 3's at Pacific are better.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Starting with number 1 (and they are both par 4's)

Obviously we know where I stand but can anyone make a case for the first at Pacific.

[tlavin]

When does the slaughter rule come in to play?  There's almost no point to this exercise.  Hole by hole, Augusta is superior and hole by hole Pacific is spectacular, but inferior and pretty much incomparable.

[Mike Benham]

Which version of ANGC should we use for the comparison?

[Tom Huckaby]

I'd call this a half.

#1 PD is quirky to the max.  Drive through a saddle, possibility of reaching the green or getting close, at least from middle tees.  Humpty-dumpty roly-poly fairway, leaves a weird approach no matter what you do.  I call that fun.  Others find it to be too much.  In any case....

#1 Augusta to me just looks like a very strong test of golf, a very tough golf hole, very difficult opener.  It seems to be a difficult drive rewarding finding the proper angle... with an approach to a fiendish green where you really need to get the ball in the right place or suffer some brutally difficult putts.

Isn't each the perfect introduction to what is to follow?

And I don't find one superior to the other.  Thus it's a half for me.

But this might change if I saw Augusta 1 in person.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Which version of ANGC should we use for the comparison?

The one in play today and this weekend.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd call this a half.

#1 PD is quirky to the max.  Drive through a saddle, possibility of reaching the green or getting close, at least from middle tees.  Humpty-dumpty roly-poly fairway, leaves a weird approach no matter what you do.  I call that fun.  Others find it to be too much.  In any case....

#1 Augusta to me just looks like a very strong test of golf, a very tough golf hole, very difficult opener.  It seems to be a difficult drive rewarding finding the proper angle... with an approach to a fiendish green where you really need to get the ball in the right place or suffer some brutally difficult putts.

Isn't each the perfect introduction to what is to follow?

And I don't find one superior to the other.  Thus it's a half for me.

But this might change if I saw Augusta 1 in person.

TH

Interesting...How would you rate the goose bump factor on number one...Is it still a draw.

[Tom Huckaby]

AHA!

Great question, JK.

#1 PD gives some trepidation as it is a somewhat tough shot, made more so by wind, made more so if one does go with driver...

But I'd have to imagine the goosebump factor goes through the roof at Augusta.  

And to me that matters.

So change it to 1up Augusta.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

I know goose bump factor may not be fair but you would not believe the view from one tee at Augusta.  By the time I made it to the first green I had a tear in my eye.  And I was a spectator during a practice round.  I don't think the goose bump factor would really kick in again until 12 tee...I'm almost shaking right now just thinking about it.

[Tom Huckaby]

None of this was meant to be fair.

And of course if Mucci reads this he's gonna spit all over his screen.

But I truly believe it counts.  I'd guess I'd have a hard time drawing back the club on 1 tee Augusta.  12?  Hell just pinch hit for me.

 

[Garland Bayley]

Which version of ANGC should we use for the comparison?

The one in play today and this weekend.

What good is the comparison if it is done for only 0.0001 % of the golfing population?

[John Kavanaugh]

Which version of ANGC should we use for the comparison?

The one in play today and this weekend.

What good is the comparison if it is done for only 0.0001 % of the golfing population?

I don't undertand...Would you prefer we discussed ANGC from the members tees?

[Mike Hendren]

Barney,

The 4th at Augusta National Golf Club is a world-class par three and worthy competition for the 4th at Pacific Dunes.

Huck, the 1st at PD can't carry the athletic supporter of the 1st at Augusta National Golf Club.  The only thing they have in common is that they are half-par holes for the great player - one's a 3.5 and the other a 4.5.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

How about comparing the first par 5's at each course...I can see Pacific #3 giving the second at ANGC a run.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Of course I trust you... but tell me why that is so... is it the difficulty?  The goosebump factor?  Why is Augusta 1 so superior?  Having played PD many times, and only seen Augusta on TV, oh I get giving the nod to Augusta, but only when the goosebump factor is added in, as I've posted.  What do I have wrong?

JK - the par fives would seem to be a rout in favor of Augusta.  But yes, if one is to come close, PD3 and AN2 are at least in the same golf world.  But AN2 looks pretty darn cool to me....

[Kalen Braley]

Hey John,

Interesting thread you came up with, thats unusal for you..  

I'd take #3 at PD over #2 AGNC.  The bunkering  comes into play on every shot and really is a penalty if you get into one of them.  When reaching the green, while a front left pin is very negotiable, you would have all you ever bargained for with a back right pin.  Has anyone played that hole when it was located back there?  I think its a great hole and the green complex really adds a lot of "spice" to its character.

[John Kavanaugh]

When does the slaughter rule come in to play?  There's almost no point to this exercise.  Hole by hole, Augusta is superior and hole by hole Pacific is spectacular, but inferior and pretty much incomparable.

Terry,

Given the current state of Augusta many of the finest critics on this site and indeed the world have come on here and said that Pacific is the finer course.  I am curious why down the the individual holes.  I will give that the practice area at the Bandon Resort is superior.

[Kalen Braley]

Huck,

I'm surprised you haven't made your list of 18 yet detailing a head to head analysis of each hole....

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

I'm surprised you haven't made your list of 18 yet detailing a head to head analysis of each hole....

 
You know me too well.
I started with 1 and it was getting way too long.  I have time to screw around but not THAT much time.  

[BCrosby]

I'd take #3 at PD over #2 AGNC.  The bunkering  comes into play on every shot and really is a penalty if you get into one of them.  

That's a pretty good description of how ANGC was  designed not to play.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

I'd take #3 at PD over #2 AGNC.  The bunkering  comes into play on every shot and really is a penalty if you get into one of them.  

That's a pretty good description of how ANGC was  designed not to play.

Bob

Bob,

I'm not sure if you mean that to be a positive or a negative, but I rather like the return of bunkers being truly penal like they are at St. Andrews and various other links courses. It really makes the player think alot more as to which route to take which is a good thing.

[Kalen Braley]

I took a quick crack at an overall head to head.  I'm sure I'll get slagged on a few holes, but its all good.

    Winner      Overall                      
1)  ANGC      ANGC 1 UP
2)  AS         ANGC 1 UP
3)  PD          AS
4)  PD          PD 1 UP
5)  ANGC      AS
6)  PD          PD 1 UP
7)  PD          PD 2 UP
 ANGC       PD 1 UP
9)  ANGC       AS
10) ANGC      ANGC 1 UP
11) AS         ANGC 1 UP
12) ANGC      ANGC 2 Up
13) ANGC      ANGC 3 Up  
14) AS         ANGC 3 UP
15) ANGC      ANGC 4 UP
16) PD          ANGC 3 UP
17) ANGC      ANGC 4 UP
18) PD          ANGC 3 UP

[Mike Hendren]

Mike:

Of course I trust you... but tell me why that is so... is it the difficulty?  The goosebump factor?  Why is Augusta 1 so superior?  

Tom,
The 1st at PD plays 305 yards downhill with an extremely wide fairway, allowing the player the opportunity to hit any number of clubs off the tee, each of which leaves a relatively straight-forward pitch to a green canted directly at the left side of the fairway into which virtually all tee shots roll.  Additionally, there's really nothing to penalize the big hitter going for the green off the tee as long as he makes a decent pass at the ball.  

The 1st at ANGC plays 455 yards uphill with only the big hitters getting a level lie for their second and a full look at the pin.  The tee ball is very tight as the right-hand fairway bunker - which dominates the players eye from the tee, can no longer be carried.  Anything left tends to run into the pines.  The closer one plays to the right-hand fairway bunker the better the line into the green as the front corner of the left-hand greenside bunker is taken out of play as is the fallaway right side of the green.  The green is pushed up and repels any ball that finds its margins and the internal contouring is treacherous, especially the relatively shallow rear plateau.   Average score on the hole in the 2006 Masters was 4.25.  

Mike

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