3 in Canada

[Jeff_Lewis]

There is extremely little discussion on the site of Canadian courses, perhaps because the season is so short. Just played 3 in the Toronto area, which is extremely thick with interesting courses to play.
Played St. George's, which is in GOLF World 100, National (which used to be?) and Magna, a new course built by a Canadian corporation.
Anybody out there familiar with both courses who has an opinion on which is the best Ontario course, either St. George's or National (or something else?) I prefered St. George's by a smidge but was very impressed with George and Tom Fazio's effort at National.

[John_Conley]

Jeff:

Discussion of courses in Canada is directly proportional to the participation of Jeff Mingay.

Another GCAer A.W.O.L.?

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

I'm with you on St. Georges over National in a very tight battle.  St. Georges is one of the best routings in the world.  Everything fits in its place. 4,14,16,17 and 18 all probably get consideration for best in Canada honors and are phenomenal.  Any architect who wants to get a feel for how a well designed 18th hole can make the clubhouse look omnipotent should see the view from the 18th fairway.

All that written, I think Capilano in Vancouver is a little better than St. Georges and deserves its reputation as the best Thompson work in Canada.

John,

I am beginning to believe Jeff Mingay is a pseudonym and he does not really exist.  I base this on several declined invitations to golf this year.  I think that we are still allowing Canadians over the border and contrary to rumor, I do shower before golfing with GCA’ers.  

[Craig_Rokke]

This may not directly answer the question, but www.scoregolf.com , which Jeff helps out with, is a good site, with a Canadian emphasis. St Georges is ranked ahead of Highlands this go around as #1 in Canada. There's an article on St George's in the current webpage.

Are any of you familiar with Links @ Crowbush Cove by any chance? My non-golfing brother just vacationed near there and said it looked fantastic.

[Joe Andriole]

I haven't been there in years but my preferences at the time among the courses played in Ontario were Colt's Hamilton GC narrowly over Thompson's St Georges and both clearly superior to Fazios' National. The variety of holes and green complexes at Hamilton are really exceptional though I suspect like most courses of that era; it is now too short for championship golf.

[Matthew MacKay]

    I've played St. Georges and The National a couple of times in the last couple of years and I too agree that St. Georges is a notch above the very difficult National.  Lee Trevino is prone to exaggeration but after the 1979 CPGA Championship he won at The National he declared it the toughest golf course he has ever played.  With all the talk regarding Augusta's membership policies it is interesting to note that The National is an all male club, the only one in Canada I believe.  It's a course that requires a lot of high, spinning shots to elevated greens; no fun for the average player.
     St. Georges, on the other hand, is a joy to play regardless of one's golfing ability and reveals more of itself each time I have played.  Georgeous speciman trees that don't intrude on the roomy field of play make it literally a walk in the park.  
     Haven't played Magna but the designer, Doug Carrick, has been a very busy man around town with various CCFAD's just completed or on the go, including the site of the Canadian Open this week.  This city is golf mad and it would take a good month to play what's worth playing, and that's not including the many old private clubs within city limits.
     I'm heading to Edinburgh this fall to study along with Brian Phillips, so if you're out there Brian I'll see you soon.

    

[Matthew MacKay]

Actually, Hamilton is the host of next years Canadian Open.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I will elabourate on this later and Jeff Mingay can reply when he returns from his travels.

As for the little discussion, we have had a couple recently, about Cape Breton and Banff.

St. Georges is my favourite Ontario course, but it inevitably comes down to personal taste.

Jeff Lewis,
What are your thoughts of the style of Magna vs. St. Georges?

Ben

[Paul Richards]

How far is Toronto from Detroit?

[Tyler Kearns]

Paul,
       Toronto is 313 kilometres away from Windsor, Ont., which borders to the east, the same river as Detroit.

[Paul Turner]

How much did Rees Jones change at Hamilton?

[Joel_Stewart]

I haven't played any of these courses but noticed that Golf Digest in the September issue really liked Angus Glen and Wooden Sticks GC.  Are these two not in the league of National or St. Georges?

[Matthew MacKay]

    Not even close.  Both Angus Glen and Wooden Sticks are made for corporate golf and although they provide a decent test of golf and are appealing to the eye, neither stands up to St. Georges and the National, particularly with respect to ambiance and character.  Despite grumblings from players this week, (particularly Canadians), Angus Glen will show some teeth this week at "the Open" if the course firms up, as the greens and their surroundings have some movement.  The designer, Doug Carrick, has done better work in the area but Angus Glen has both the space and the lobbyists needed to hold the event.  
     There has been much talk in the media about taking the tournament to some of Canada's classic courses but the logistics of this don't compute, particularly with respect to gallery space and parking (St. Georges, for example, is on a busy city street and has room for only about 100 cars).  The fact is the RCGA makes most of it's money from the tournament and this must remain it's priority.  However, next year at Hamilton will be a treat and I think will attract a better field.
    

[Whineass]

Tom Clark is the architect who advises Hamilton not Rees Jones

[Paul Turner]

Whineass

Rees Jones did work on Hamilton in 1982.

[whineass]

Paul,

That's a long time ago. I'll take your word on it, but none of the members have talked about anything that he has done. Do you know any specifics?
Tom Clark's worked with them for at least 15 years now. He has rebuilt at least the 5th and may be one additional green. Tom McBroom worked there briefly too, but they were unhappy with his work. Someone may know better, but I though he did #3 green and work on the 7th hole.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Joel,
Matthew is right, not even close to the same league.

It may just be personal taste, but Angus and Wooden Sticks are modern courses in the true sense of the word.  

St. Georges is deserving in the TOP 100 world list, Angus and Wooden Sticks would not scare a top 100 North American.

Worthy CCFADs and great for corporate golf though.

[Jeff Mingay]

Apologies for the late reply to this thread. I've been traveling without a computer for the past week...

Jeff Lewis,

I have to say, St. George's is leaps-and-bounds better than the National GC of Canada. There's no comparison. As David Wigler says, St. George's is nearly a perfect routing by Thompson. But for a few of the changes made specifically for professional tournament play by Robbie Robinson the late 1960s, St. George's is near perfection.

Robinson re-did the 3rd green, which, in my humble opinion, appears a bit awkward; he moved the 4th green, changing that hole from a formidable par 4 to a medium length par 5 that is easily reachable by low handicap golfers on most days with a long iron; Robinson also moved the 9th green; and, he moved the 15th green way back, changing that hole from what was considered one of the world's great par 4s to a par 5.

I've alway been fascinated with the original green sites for the 4th and 15th holes in particular, that's why I'm unsure if Robinson's changes were for the better over the long term? Still, they're good holes today.

The 10th green has also been rebuilt on several occasions over the years, most recently by Doug Carrick and Co. And the 17th hole originally played as a par 5. It's a difficult par 4 these days, with a skinny green surrounded by danger!

The National GC has some very awkward holes, most notably the dogleg par 5 12th: undoubtedly one of the worst par 5 holes I've ever seen. I also not a big fan of several other holes, like the 18th for one, but I'll spare the details in favour of staying positive!

I think Matthew McKay sums it up above, the National GC can be no fun for the majority of players. That's not a positive characteristic for any golf course, in my mind. And, as Matthew also points out too, St. George's is the opposite -- infinitely enjoyable for all classes of golfers: male, female, juniors and seniors. For that, it gets high marks from me.

Hey Matt, are you in Toronto? If so, send me an email: jemingay@aol.com

David Wigler,

I'm a real person, honestly! Just really busy at present. I can't wait to take up your next offer for a game of golf over at Plum Hollow. I'm looking very much forward to it.

Craig Rokke,

I was writing an architecture-related column at scoregolf.com a few years ago, but not any more. We had an amicable break-up. I just can't find the time to write a bi-weekly column right now. It's tough to find the time, and material!

I am however writing a regular architecture-related column for GreenMaster, the official magazine of the Canadian Golf Superintendents Association, which is great fun. I'm sure very few of you get the magazine though.

As for Crowbush Cove... what an interesting property Tom McBroom had to work with: near the dunes on the north shore of Prince Edward Island, with amazing sights along the dunes and out across the ocean. Most golfers depise the short (100 yards or so), uphill par 3 17th hole, which traverse a high ridge, near the ocean. It's exposed to the wind, big time, and its its tiny green is hidden from view and surrounded by deep bunkers. I love that hole! Beyond that, I'm searching...

I caddied at Crowbush Cove during the 1999 (?) Canadian Amateur and the course was so soggy it was unbelievable. The wind was strong most of the week but there was little, or no option to bounch the ball onto many greens. Most ofthe greens there are perched high above the level of the fairways for one, and down on the holes closest to the ocean you HAVE TO play the ball in the air approaching the greens, because of forced carries at the 5th, 6th, 8th and 17th, and perched greens at the 7th, 9th and 16th. There's no option.

Last, an interesting tidbit about Angus Glen: Rod Whitman was the original architect on that job. He routed the course (this is NOT to say Carrick's routing is the same. It probably isn't, but I'm not sure) and actually did quite a bit of preliminary dirt work, including building the pond at the 1st hole. The circumstances behind Whitman leaving the job are unimportant, and inconsequential.

[ian]

Jeff,

Its a different routing at Angus.

Paul,

I spent the week-end with Keith Evans from Rees Jones. They did not do anything at Hamilton. They were asked if they were interested but declined since they were too busy.

Jeff again,

The National is a great course, I also perfer St. George's, but the National is still great course.

[henrye]

Jeff, there are a number of great courses here in Toronto - St. George's certainly being one of my favorites.  If you come back to Toronto I would suggest that you get outside the city and play some of the courses on the outskirts.  The Caledon area, 40 minutes north west of St. George's contains 5 terrific courses at two facilities, Devils Pulpit/Paintbrush and Osprey Valley Resorts.  Also, traveling north of Toronto to the Muskoka area will take you into our lake country, which has several excellent courses, Lake Joe, Rocky Crest, Deerhurst, Bigwin and Grandview.  I suggest this, not because I would necessarily argue that one is better than the next, but that the surrounding countryside is far more interesting.  While St. George's and the National are good courses, I don't feel the experience at either is unique enough to travel from afar for.

[Jeff Mingay]

henrye,

I've played Devil's Paintbrush and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's simply a fun golf course to play. The Pulpit, on the other hand, just isn't "my cup of tee." It is neat though that one club has such a diversity between its two courses.

As for Muskoka, I was up there a few weeks ago. I played Deerhurst and the new "Mark O'Meara" course at Grandview, which, for the record, is the work of Brit Stenson. To my surprise, I really enjoyed the the O'Meara course. It's not great, but it's pretty decent. There are a few interesting holes out there. More than I actuall expected to find.

One interesting thing about building golf courses in the rocky Muskoka area is that sand cap for the fairways HAS TO be imported. The O'Meara course was very firm and fast through the green, which made approach play very interesting. On the 1st tee, the starter said: "We don't recommend that you approach the greens through the air here. The idea is to bump the ball along the ground onto the greens."

How cool is that?!?! And how often do you hear those instructions from a starter at a high-end, $200 green fee resort course?!?! Not often.

[henrye]

Just finished up at the National and I must say that it was a beautiful day.  The course is good, but certainly not the best.

About the people there - After driving the ball off the elevated tee on the eighteenth a fellow in the group behind asks with a nasal drawl, "Hittin' the ball well boys?"  The voice is familiar and as I look up I see none other than Happy Gilmour himself - his attire is typical of what one might expect Happy to be wearing, sans the Hockey sweater.  His swing was not dissimilar to the one in the movie, but as you might guess, the ball didn't travel quite so far.

[TEPaul]

How about London Hunt Club? Any of you know that one? I haven't been there in a number of years but I used to go up there and play in the London Hunt Invitational for a number of years? What do the Canadians think of RTJ's London Hunt?

I heard the course was remodeled after RTJ and that induced him to not want his name on the course any longer but I think the course has been restored to RTJ to some extent. Maybe Rees did it.

[ian]

Rees renovated the course with RTJ in mind. The course is better than it was. The course still has the 10,000 sq,ft, greens. Rees removed all the akward moments and blind shots to improve the routing. Not my personal favourite, but a very good golf course. Robbie Robinson was on site (supervising) for a lot of the construction, this may have influenced the look of the course. He liked bigger features than Trent.

[Jeff Mingay]

Interesting tidbit about Robbie Robinson watching over the construction of London Hunt, Ian. That was about 1960, if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, Trent Jones and Robinson both apprenticed under Stanley Thompson, so they had known each other for quite a long time by 1960, I presume.

Both had long established their own practices by 1960 as well, which is why I find it curious that Robinson was watching over a Trent Jones project in his own backyard?  

I can only speculate that Robinson didn't have much work going at the time, and Trent Jones was too busy to be around throughout the construction of London Hunt.

Perhaps the reason Trent Jones wanted his name off the design was because there was too much Robbie Robinson out there?!?! Interesting question.