Tullymore

[Paul Richards]

What other courses are 'must-see's ' around Tullymore?

thanks

[Chris_Blakely]

These are relatively close:

Pilgrim's Run GC Pierson, MI (10 to 15 minutes away)

The Mines GC Grand Rapids, MI (35 to 40 minutes away)

Meceola CC Big Rapids, MI (5 minutes away)
9 holes built by Jack Daray and 9 new by Jeff Gorney
probaly is not a must see, but the orginal 9 has some terrific greens, most are perfectly located, very quirky and unique.

Shadow Ridge GC 9 hole Ross Ionia, MI (40 minutes away) again this is most likely not a must see, but a fun Ross 9 holer that I do think has been altered much.  I believe it was built around the time he worked at Oakland Hills.

Caberfae Peaks GC Peaks Course Cadillac, MI (50 to 55 minutes away) again not a must see, but orginally going to be 36 holes, they only built 9.  Great terrain with some great natural green sites.

[Doug Ralston]

I have heard good things about Tullymore's older sister, St Ives. Cannot yet speak from experience ...... but hope to by year's end.

Doug

[Tommy Williamsen]

Paul, St. Ives is disappointing but if you are there and feel like it play it.  Pigrims Run is good.  Wuskowan (sp?) Players Club in South Haven is very good.  It is probably an hour and a half away.  A real sleeper is Muskegon CC.  It is an Old Donald Ross course and I think you would enjoy it.

[Paul Richards]

If anyone is very familiar with the route from Chicago to Tullymore, are any of these courses along the way???







FOREST DUNES GC
TIMBERSTONE GC
TULLYMORE GC (ST. IVES)




TREETOPS SYLVAN (R.T. JONES)
RADRICK FARMS GC
LAKEWOOD SHORES (GAILES)

RED HAWK GC
R & S SHARF GC (OAKLAND UNIVERSITY)
ELK RIDGE GC


TPC OF MICHIGAN

OAKHURST G & CC



SHANTY CREEK (THE LEGEND)
THOUSAND OAKS GC
SHANTY CREEK (CEDAR RIVER)
THOROUGHBRED GC
WARWICK HILLS G & CC
ISLAND HILLS GC




WILDERNESS VALLEY (BLK FRST)

SIGNAL POINT CLUB
COPPER HILL G & CC (MARSH/HILL)
TREETOPS NORTH (TOM FAZIO)
GRAND TRAVERSE R (THE BEAR)
DUNMAGLAS GC
HAWKSHEAD G. RESORT



GRAND HAVEN
RATTLE RUN
LOCHEN HEATH GC
PILGRIM'S RUN
BELVEDERE
GREYWALLS
ANGELS CROSSING
LITTLE TRAVERSE BAY GC
GARLAND (MONARCH)
BOYNE MOUNTAIN (MONUMENT)
EGYPT VALLEY CC
THE FORTRESS
GARLAND (SWAMPFIRE)
POHLCAT GC

[Nathaniel Amrine]

On the way to Tullymore:

Thoroughbred (Muskegon - interesting design to say the least)

Island Hills (South of Kalamazoo near Indiana border in Centreville - Ray Hearn design)

Angels Crossing (Starting to become an acclaimed golf course who's main man posts frequently on this site - in Kalamazoo)

Grand Haven (Once ranked in top 100 public golf courses by Golf Digest - a very old course, tight tight fairways)

Tommy this will undoubtedly turn into a "Michigan Courses" thread but here are some recommendations in regards to your immediate question. All courses reside "on your way":

- St. Ives

- Pilgrims Run

- Diamond Springs (Hamilton - awesome feel. Great place. Great golf.)

- Wuskowhan Players Club (Private club in West Olive, about one hour north of South Haven)

- Thornapple Pointe (Grand Rapids, Michigan's only Rees Jones design)

- Lynx (Northern Michigan layout on the slopes near Bittersweet Ski area in Allegan, outside of Kalamazoo)

- Thornapple Creek (Kalamazoo course with fantastic but challenging back nine)

- Milham Park (Kalamazoo muni - my personal favorite. A fantastic round of golf for $12. Rivals several of those mentioned above)

[Joe Hancock]

Thornapple Pointe is a Bill Newcomb course. Thousand Oaks is Rees, and it isn't the only Rees in the state.

From your list, on the way:

Thousand Oaks
Thoroughbred
Grand Haven
Pilgrim's Run
Angel's Crossing
Egypt Valley

And another plug for the Mines, which may be the easiest of all for your route of travel.

Joe

[Nathaniel Amrine]

Sorry - got the two confused. I know that at one point that was part of their advertising campaign.

[Ari Techner]

I would personally skip St. Ives.  I have never personally understood how that course got good reviews.  Most of it is very fake, there is alot of unneeded blind shots, the greens are nothing special.  There are a couple of just terrible holes out there and only one that I would consider really good (17).  There are many much better courses around.  Pilgrims Run specifically I would try to play along with Tullymore which you will enjoy.  (though I am not sure it deserves its new spot in the Top 100)  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tullymore is one of my personal favorites. Of my 26 years on this earth, 22 were spent in Michigan on the west side of the state. If you're going to be anywhere near the west side, you cannot forget about Arcadia Bluffs and possibly Kingsley Club. Thousand Oaks in Grand Rapids is a solid Ress Jones with great views. I'd avoid Thoroughbred without question along with Thornapple Point.-Way Overpriced. Same goes from St. Ives-Never understood why people like that course-just like every other Jerry Matthews design in the state.
  If you're going to be int he GR area, you should really try to play LE Kaufman. It's an old, 1963 Bruce Matthews, Sr. design muni that maintained as good as most private courses. The greens are alway screaming fast and the Supt. came from Oakland Hills. To me, LE is the best course in GR and it's about $35. Great variety of holes and great conditioning. Pilgrims Run has been stated and well worth the trip-Truely a special course and Mike's bunkering is great.
  Lastly, The Meadows at Grand Valley State-IT's better than Thoroughbred and Thornapple Point and without a doubt in better condition. I'll but a plug in for Hawks Head in South Haven-A mid 90's Arthur Hills course with ALOT of sandy waste areas and good conditioning. Better than most Hill's courses because of the site being located so close to Lake Michigan-Wind and sand. Grand Haven Golf Club needs about 3000 trees removed to restore it's playing corridors.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Doug Ralston]

Same goes from St. Ives-Never understood why people like that course-just like every other Jerry Matthews design in the state.
 

Now Tony?! First you criticise St Ives, then you compliment it by saying it is typical Matthews! You sound confused.

Doug

[Brian Cenci]

If anyone is very familiar with the route from Chicago to Tullymore, are any of these courses along the way???







FOREST DUNES GC
TIMBERSTONE GC
TULLYMORE GC (ST. IVES)

TREETOPS SYLVAN (R.T. JONES)
RADRICK FARMS GC
LAKEWOOD SHORES (GAILES)

RED HAWK GC
R & S SHARF GC (OAKLAND UNIVERSITY)
ELK RIDGE GC


TPC OF MICHIGAN

OAKHURST G & CC



SHANTY CREEK (THE LEGEND)
THOUSAND OAKS GC
SHANTY CREEK (CEDAR RIVER)
THOROUGHBRED GC
WARWICK HILLS G & CC
ISLAND HILLS GC




WILDERNESS VALLEY (BLK FRST)

SIGNAL POINT CLUB
COPPER HILL G & CC (MARSH/HILL)
TREETOPS NORTH (TOM FAZIO)
GRAND TRAVERSE R (THE BEAR)
DUNMAGLAS GC
HAWKSHEAD G. RESORT



GRAND HAVEN
RATTLE RUN
LOCHEN HEATH GC
PILGRIM'S RUN
BELVEDERE
GREYWALLS
ANGELS CROSSING
LITTLE TRAVERSE BAY GC
GARLAND (MONARCH)
BOYNE MOUNTAIN (MONUMENT)
EGYPT VALLEY CC
THE FORTRESS
GARLAND (SWAMPFIRE)
POHLCAT GC

Paul,
     If your traveling to Tullymore from Chicago I'd play Eagle Eye in Lansing and Angel's Crossing.  It's pretty much on the way.  Eagle Eye is top 4 public in the state (Next to Arcadia Bluffs, Greywalls and Forest Dunes).  If you are driving from Chicago to play Tullymore...I have to ask why?  Disregard the #14 ranking in the latest Golf Digest list for Tullymore.  It's a good course but it's barely in the top 10 in the state for me as far as public courses go.  Angel's and Eagle Eye I think are as good or better.

-Brian

[Brian Cenci]

What other courses are 'must-see's ' around Tullymore?

thanks

If your near Tullymore....also drive the hour and a half north to play Forest Dunes near Grayling...well worth it.

[Chris_Blakely]

Paul

If you are driving from Chicago, you do not want to play St. Ives, I agree 100% with the others views.  It is a "typical" Mathews course.  Also, by calling it a "typical" Mathews course, that is not a good thing.  Just because you are at the St. Ives Resort, does not mean you should play it.  I would travel to play many of the others liste.

Chris

[Anthony_Nysse]

Doug,
  If you read my post again, you will see that I compliment Bruce Matthews, Sr.  JERRY Matthews is Bruce Sr's. son ALL Jerry's stuff looks the same. LE Kaufman was done in 1963, and peroid where Grand Haven was done, Sunnybrook and several other very good BRUCE Matthews, Sr. courses were done. JERRY joined his dads firm in in 1960 and the desing company was called W. Bruce Matthews & Son. To me, Jerry is a template designer.
  Bruce Matthews, III designed the much acclaimed Angels Crossings in Vicksburg. He is Bruce Sr.'s nephew
 Tullymore has MANY, many options and it's conditioning is great. I'd play Tullymore over anything in the GR area and usually play it once a year when I go home. It's more than worth the 1 hour drive for me. Tullymore is a Top 3 Public course in the state with Arcadia Bluffs and Forest Dunes.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Doug Ralston]

Chris;

My comment was intended to be facetious. I knew he was not intending to compliment Matthews. That is certainly not 'in vogue' here. Matthews, like Art Hills, is on the GCA 'sh!t list', that much is clear. I am certain that, like Hill's Bay Harbor, any of the GCA pet architects could have done any good Matthews course 'even better'! [You'de think if Doak had had that property, Bay Harbor woulda easily exceeded Pine Valley as World's #1. Since it is already too good for even Hills haters to completely dis, it must have just been the property]

I do not speak from experience, certainly. Living in Cincy, i have gotten to Michigan exactly one time, and then only to one course we had time to reach. That was 'The Majestic". It is not considered Matthews' best, by any means. Yet we found it very playable. If his 'better courses' are much more pleasing, I suspect I will like Jerry Matthews better than you do.

Ah, it's tough to credit things said here about the 'anti-vogue' architects. I have played more Hills courses, so can speak from more experience. I did happen to like a few. Therefore you must guess that I will be skeptical of 'popular opinion' here about Matthews, too.

Doug

[Doug Ralston]

Tony;

So when i play Timberstone, I am gonna find it just like The Majestic?

Well, is so, I will indeed be disappointed. We will see.

Doug

[Anthony_Nysse]

Doug,
  I didn't take your commetns in the right contex...my fault. I'm not a fan of 99.9% of JMatthews courses and I grew up working on one. I actually took at class taught by him at Michigan State and he went on and on about had anything blind is poor golf, anything hidden is unfair and then went on to talk about how he has certain holes that fit into sertain properties...It all looks the same in the end. I've seen 25-30 JMatthews courses and have yet to walk away thinking ANY thought went into the design.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Chris_Blakely]

Doug,

I have to be honest, I am really confused here, almost baffled.  I simply made the comment that St. Ives is not a course to play just because you are at the resort and under Paul's criteria of 'must play' it comes nowhere close.

I have not spoken ill of any of Mathews' courses and am not a Mathews' basher, so please be careful what you write and what you purport.  I wrote that I agree that it is a typical Mathews' course.  Typicall is not bad, just NOT 'Must Play!'  Tony's assesment of Mathews' courses is close to spot on and I happen to garner my view from more than just the Majestic.  I have played around 15 of his courses.  I would not go as far as to say that no thought goes into them because he has some stretches on several courses that I find quite good.  But if you take the course as a whole, I agree with Tony that he is a template designer.  Also, his reliance on over-manufacturing courses and mounding is a little too much in places.

If you come up to Michigan again and want some courses to play by Mathews that are pretty good, I would recommend Emerald Vale, Hawks Ridge, and Wyandotte Shores.

As for Art Hills, I too have played a lot of Hills courses as he is from Toledo, OH and that is where his office is on Bancroft street in Toledo, OH.  He has done a number of not so good to bad courses in the Toledo area.  It does no good to name these courses.  But as I have said on recent threads, I believe his work post 1998ish where I believe his associates have been more heavy handed is quite good and have named the courses in these recent years that I like.  Thus, I would say that I do not fall into the category of Hills basher either.

Chris

[Paul Richards]

Thank you for all the wonderful comments.

One bit of confusion to me:

it seems that Tullymore and St. Ives are two seperate courses.

True?

Are they at the same complex?

The reason I ask is that my spreadsheet of all courses on all lists reads:

Tullymore (St. Ives)

One of these courses was #13 on GD's state list in 1999, #19 in 2001, #6 in 2003, and #8 in 2005.

Are they one and the same course or did I mix them up somehow?

[PThomas]

2 different courses at one place Paul

[Chris_Blakely]

Paul,

One small correction to Paul Thomas' previous comment.  Tullymore is part of the St. Ives resort, but not the St. Ives Course.  Tullymore is the Jim Engh course and the St. Ives course is the Jerry Mathews course.  

Also, both courses do not leave from the same clubhouse (not part of the same clubhouse complex - but part of the same resort), at least they did not when I played them 2 years ago.  Thus, if you were to play both, there would be a small amount of travel (5 minutes) to the other course.

Chris

[Doug Ralston]

Paul

If you are driving from Chicago, you do not want to play St. Ives, I agree 100% with the others views.  It is a "typical" Mathews course.  Also, by calling it a "typical" Mathews course, that is not a good thing.  Just because you are at the St. Ives Resort, does not mean you should play it.  I would travel to play many of the others liste.

Chris

Chris;

Can you reread your words and tell me how else to interpret them but anti-JerryMatthews? 'this is typical ..... ' calling it typical is not a good thing ......'

That aside, if you now assure me you do not bash him, I will accept your word.

My friend and I hope to play a few Michigan courses this year. I have asked for advice a few times here. Somehow, not only is Matthews not among the list [even Timberstone, of which I have heard huge accolades in several other places], but Matthews himself seems to get dennigration. Well, as indicated, Timberstone is listed with Greywalls as 'must play' when we go to the UP, so we shall see.

I am especially glad to hear you do not completely discount Hills, also. There are some very old Hills courses in Cincy area I think well worth a play. Weatherwax is 36 holes of good basic golf .... no frills. Glenview [city muni] is also quite playable. Then, of course, you likely have heard me rave on the Hills/Forrest masterpiece in the Kentucky State Parks golf trail, Eagle Ridge. This is a new one, 2004 vintage, I think.

Chris, I do not uphold certain architecture styles. I am quite eclectic. But I do know what I like. I love Liddy's Trophy Club in Indy, which I think would fit in well with standard GCA philosophy. I also really like Shaker Run, which gets pounded here and is a Hills course. I admit I especially like beautiful mountain, forest, and lake courses, but I would gladly play a Sand Hills type, a desert course like Apache Stronghold, or a coastal masterpiece like Spyglass or Cape Kidnappers.

My fight is with narrowing the definition of quality to only include limited course 'types' that fit an architecture philosophy.

It is also possible I like to argue about things [thus my persistent appearance on political chat sites]  .

Doug

[Chris_Blakely]

Doug,

Maybe you should do the rereading.

I said I agree with it being "typical Mathews,"  now to me typical Mathews means you will get some mundane holes, and some pretty good, but not great holes.  Again to me, this is not bad, just not great and not worth a special trip from Chicago, that is just me.  NEVER have I come out and bashed any of his courses or him as an architect.  The thread was orginally about "must sees" around Tullymore and IMO there are none by Jerry Mathews.

As for Timberstone, I have not played it, so I have never offered it up.  Even if the course is ranked high by a certain magazine or state publication, I only comment on the courses I have played!!

Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

Also to correct a mistaken course attribution and course name in a previous post(reply #18):  I meant to write earlier that Hunters Ridge and not Hawks Ridge is a Jerry Mathews course that is good and I wrongly attributed Emerald Vale to Jerry Mathews and it is W. Bruce Mathews III.

I meant The Emerald at Maple Creek is also a good Jerry Matthews course.

Hunter's Ridge, The Emerald at Maple Creek and Wyandotte Shores all by Jerry Mathews are good.  None are in the area of Tullymore and I certainly would not call them "must sees," but if in the area of these courses, they are not bad.