Menie Links — Advice to Mr. Trump

[Kirk Gill]

My advice would be to look at why golfers travel from all over the world to play links golf in Scotland. To understand that what we want is authenticity and a feeling of tradition. I'd humbly request that they move as little sand as necessary, and accept that over-the-top visual trickery and fakery is not wanted or desired. I would ask that they consider a rugged style of course in keeping with the site, and in keeping with modern sand-based classics like Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes. Further, I'd advise a close look at Bandon in general, the vision and the execution, to see how much could be emulated in Scotland.

[Brian_Ewen]

I live only 15 miles away from the site , yet I find it really hard to raise any enthusiam in the project .

It isnt being built for me , a local golfer .

As we are constantly told its being built for "Rich American Tourists" .

I may never even get to play it !.

At this moment in time , I think the project has got bugger all to do with golf ! .

[Bill_McBride]

I live only 15 miles away from the site , yet I find it really hard to raise any enthusiam in the project .

It isnt being built for me , a local golfer . As we are constantly told its being built for "Rich American Tourists" .

I may never even get to play it !.

At this moment in time , I think the project has got bugger all to do with golf !

Brian, maybe that's what Forrest is getting at, and me too with my suggestion that Trump and the Faz team disguise themselves as Americans who travel all the way to Scotland to play rough looking courses in high winds and cold, wet weather, rather than staying home playing Fazio-style courses that are generally quite manufacturered.  There must be something there that causes such Americans to invest quite a bit in $2 quid and expensive travel.  That's the secret ingredient I think that team needs to make Menie Links an attraction.

That ingredient certainly hasn't hurt the pocketbook of the Links Trust, and #7 Castle doesn't appear to be going to either.

It also wouldn't hurt to have local rates for locals either.

[Forrest Richardson]

Kirk — I have always found it interesting that Bandon (American) is not all that attractive to many from the UK. Some of my friends there would far rather play at typically American venues when coming over here; Pebble, Spyglass, Sawgrass, etc.  

Brian — There is always time for you to become a rich American tourist!  

[Bill_McBride]

Kirk — I have always found it interesting that Bandon (American) is not all that attractive to many from the UK. Some of my friends there would far rather play at typically American venues when coming over here; Pebble, Spyglass, Sawgrass, etc.

Or just about anything around Orlando for that matter!  

[Kirk Gill]

Forrest - understood, however, as Mr. Ewen posited earlier, I don't know that Trump is aiming at the indiginous golfer for his money. From the Trump website:

"Golf in the Aberdeen and Grampian region embodies everything that is great about Scottish golf both from a traditional and modern perspective. Not only does the region boast some of the finest links golf in Great Britain but is seen as one of the fastest developing golf markets in Scotland. In fact there are over 70 golf courses and 24,000 registered golfers of whom 11,000 belong to 35 private clubs. In addition and more importantly the region is experiencing a major surge in golf tourism with the better known courses averaging around 7,000 visitor rounds a year, 65% of whom are from the US. This trend is predicted to continue and with the addition of Trump International Golf Links, Scotland it is expected that visitor numbers will quadruple soon after opening."

If the opening of their facility will alone account for that kind of tourist increase, the locals won't be playing at all. And it doesn't surprise me that the U.K. golfer wouldn't want to travel all the way here for an approximation of what they've already got at  home. Sometimes people get a hankering for whatever it is they haven't got, to the point where they really really want something that isn't all that great, just because they can't get it. Example - people used to always ask me to bring them cases of Coors beer when I travelled back east. Never could figure out the attraction.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill, I would be interested in the stats for # of travelers and demographicsfor them. I think the price situation over there is over the top. I find nothing about lodging and green fees in the UK to be reasonable no matter what level of accomodation you are looking at. I feel things are going to change radically as the baby boomers in the US slow down a bit.

[Brian_Ewen]

Forrest / Bill
Surely if you go to America , you want to play an American style course , not something immitating what we can play at home , at a fraction of the price .

Then again , the amount of these American "championship" type courses that are being built on these shores nowadays , why bother travelling at all ? .

[Kalen Braley]

I find the "quadruple after opening" statement to be DT bravado at best.  I would highly doubt it will be anything even close to that, not even 2X the traffic.

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff chided me for being sarcastic in my first post. I had thought of what others wrote about seeing the other links, but realized that DT would not appreciate what he was seeing. DT needs to be re-educated. I imagine his golf game is not suited to links, and that is part of the problem perhaps leading to an infatuation with waterfalls and water hazards. I would suggest he spend at least a week taking links playing lessons on a fine links course (e.g. Dornoch) from a links playing expert teaching pro. He should should take young Tommy and older Tom F along with him and then put the teaching pro on retainer as a consultant to the project.

[Brian_Ewen]

I still dont believe he realises how bad the fog can get during the summer .

As my home club knows , golfers detest having rounds cancelled due to fog .

For some reason its the clubs fault .

[RJ_Daley]

I liked this article and overview of the project:

http://www.scottisharchitecture.com/blog/read/424

With the amount of money involved in this project, it can't turn out anything but a lavish, extravagant, class dividing presents on the Scottish landscape.  

Trump ought to take a cue from Carnegie and turn the golf course entity over to a trust, to be maintained as an accessible local treasure.  

If he wants to make money, go ahead and work out a symbiotic relationship between the trust and his planned resort lodge and spa.   But, he should create a mechanism whereby access and costs at the golf course are within local resident's means.  That should spell the need to do a minimalist course, with a maintenance meld that can be supported by moderate fees.  That should not entail a high profile, ultra expensive GCA.  It should be a modestly priced golf design.  I fail to see how a minimalist design philosophy that produces a solid links course can be less desirable than a big name, over built, extravagant course.  Good golf is good golf.  The extra cost of having a big name architect adds nothing to the golf experience.

[Kalen Braley]

RJ,

I understand where you would like DT to be coming from.  But the reality is, he doesn't get it, and I highly doubt he ever will.  

He doesn't build courses over here that have a cheap local rate, so why would he do it in Scotland?? He doesn't build modest here, so why would he build modest over there?  He's not interested in local needs here, so why would he be interested over there.  The Donald is the donald and we all know his m/o.

And if there are enough US tourists mixed in with the occasional local to support the venture in Scotland, then he will feel every bit as validated to having done it his way.

[Forrest Richardson]

How is this development likely to work out in terms of percentage attributed to experience...?

20% Location
50% Golf Course
20% Ambiance
10% Other Amenities

 

If one looks at the canvas from this perspective, is it necessary that the package be all about golf? Or, can the "waterfalls", "trickery" and other aspects be made up in the non-golf components?

[Bill_McBride]

Forrest / Bill
Surely if you go to America , you want to play an American style course , not something immitating what we play at home , at a fraction of the price .

Then again , the amount of these American "championship" type courses that are being built on these shores nowadays , why bother travelling at all ? .

It's really funny, Brian, I was playing the New Course last Thursday with John Krystynak and we agreed that, while it's not the Old, it would create enormous buzz in the US if it were built over here on the appropriate site.

Of course we're probably nuts, or at least all wet!  

[Jason McNamara]

How is this development likely to work out in terms of percentage attributed to experience...?

20% Location
50% Golf Course
20% Ambiance
10% Other Amenities

And how do these numbers compare with Donald Trump's US courses?

[Tony_Muldoon]

I woould say "Donald it's time to loose the small furry animal that resides atop your head.  Not only do they have quarantine laws in the UK, but they're a nation of animal lovers and don't expect the planning application to go smoothly once the gutter press discover it's nailed on. Besides with the wind on a links course can your image afford a bad hair day?

Your affectionate friend, missing you already.

Tony"

[Jeff_Brauer]

One last post for the evening...

I got to thinking that the most successful projects always include a passionate Owner with vision (DT qualifies) who hires a gca with similar passion and visions, and then lets him go with general direction, but without micro managing the details.

I suspect that Trump should merely follow that scenario.  He seems to have been successful in other ventures besides golf!  Perhaps he (like many club members) has trouble staying out of the micro management mode in a hobby type adventure.

As to the American/Scotland theme thing, how does the American themed Morrish/Weiskoph course do in terms of the other resorts in Scotland, play wise?  How about Norman's Doobeg, which tries the traditional themes?  Actual numbers might help the Trumpman decide which way to go, since he is, shall we say, money motivated.

Forrest suggests the counter intuitive "do something really different."  Again, the first thing leaping to mind is Scotland's first 100 meter high artifical water fall.  If anyone can do it, its the Trumpster.

Okay, now you can call me sarcastic!

[Forrest Richardson]

Or, you could go linear...something shaped, sort of, like Texas...or, maybe a retro toaster...

[Ally Mcintosh]

this thread depresses me... i can't bear to think about what will happen at this most perfect of sites just down the road from my home...

...no one's even mentioned the monstrosities of buildings that will take an enormous amount away from the golf course even if by some miracle it is of wonderful design and construction...

[cary lichtenstein]

How is this for an inspiration?

He has a TV how, The Donald that is called the Apprentice.

Why not have as contestants all the Fazio's, Doak, Coore and Crenshaw, Jeff Brauer, Keith Foster, Jim Engh, KBM, JN, Tiger,  and everyone I have left out.

Break them into 2 teams: The Minimialists and the Moderns and have them compete with a first price equal to the $10 million Fedex Cup Prize.

Let the fun begin

[Forrest Richardson]

Jason — I am not sure what percentage of the experience his American courses get. I have never visited one. I do have plans to visit the CA course, but have not made it as yet.

A contest? Sounds good. As Brauer could easily manhandle the others if it came to physical beatings, I'm with Jeff.

[Forrest Richardson]

It was pointed out to me in a private message from someone in the media that this site — Meine Links — will very likely require that no soil be moved of any substance. In other words, it will lay upon the land like a soft blanket, or it may never be built. Now, we all know that municipal and state regulators have little resources to make sure this happens...even in the best of oversight conditions an inspector may visit only once per week and, even then, they typically know little of golf course building and have no basis by which to judge what has been moved and what has been left alone. All it might take is someone (like Brauer) to say, "Ahhh, that is an old dune we left in place. We merely brushed off the scraggly bits and will plant grass next Tuesday."

[Jeff_Brauer]

Careful Forrest,

As was pointed out yesterday, I need to cut back that caffeine, so don't rile me!

Remember that drunken brawl we had at ASGCA last year, and I jumped in to defend you after Paul Cowley ripped your hair off, but got there too late?

[Forrest Richardson]

I do recall that. And, am thankful that Tim Nugent clocked you with Tom Fazio's cane made from the buldozer crank shaft. Boy, that was a scary scene.

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