The Golf Digest Top 100 List is now posted

[Andy Troeger]

How can Point O Woods not even be rated int he Top 25 courses in the state of Michigan? Courses like Timberstone, Elk Ridge, The Bear, Eagle Eye and Barton Hills are in a league below POW. This rating thing has gotten a little out of hand. POW was a fix on the list since it's inception and fell off in 2005 and now it's not even in the Top 25 in the State? Something is VERY wrong....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Tony,
That REALLY surprises me as well.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Andy,
  I was waiting for you to chime in!
 POW was #3 in the state no more than 5 years ago and now there is no mention of it...that's too bad...

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Kevin_Reilly]

Golf Digest has very rigid criteria that the raters calculate out to two decimal places with appx 8-10 criteria, some of which count double.  Then they modify the math by nearly adding "Tradition" and "walking" points.  Hard, pretty and exclusive all weigh in to a great degree and conditioning counts more proportionally.

Disclaimer: This is not a rating post.

Bill, they eliminated those Tradition and Walking points, it appears.

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/americasgreatest/index.ssf?/courses/americasgreatest/gd200705rankingcriteria.html

[Tom Huckaby]

Kevin - excellent disclaimer - not sure if it will hold up in a court of law, though.  

And good catch.  Our friend Dr. V. is behind the times with the way it's done at GD.

BTW it might also help to give a definition of "gestalt."  Here's one:

Gestalt is a German word that can be translated into English in various ways:

as shape, form, guise or likeness (e.g., in Menschengestalt: in human form)
as figure or as a synonym for person (e.g., eine dunkle Gestalt: a sinister figure)
A collection of physical, biological, psychological or symbolic entities that creates a unified concept, configuration or pattern which is greater than the sum of its parts.

Methinks Dr. V was referring to the last one. That is, the GW boys use the criteria established, but don't have to give it any particular defined value.  They give a final number based on the sum of the parts, however they see fit.

Correct?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't particularly want to open this can of worms.  Nonetheless, there is a GD category that sometimes can change a particular course's score: conditioning.  I belong to a club where the course had serious conditioning problems and dropped in the rankings, when everyone thought we should go up.  I know that when I get to the club I am going to hear, "WHy did we go down in the rankings?"  Well, we are just lucky that we didn't drop further.  My scores alone contributed to the decline.  To maintain my personal integrity I had to drop my conditioning score by two points.

[Phil_the_Author]

Vosty, with all due respect to Mike's ability to cut and paste, he needs a refresher course. The list is incorrect as shown.

Bethpage Black is 4th (26 ranking), ahead of both Shadow Creek (27) and Bandon Dunes (31).

[Matt_Ward]

Kudos to Golfweek on two main fronts ...

Augusta National needs to drop. Digest people are still walking in a fog on that one.

Medinah #3 is not #11 in the nation. That is clearly a major differences with Golfweek which has the course where it belongs.

I've monitored the debate on this thread for quite some time and I will post a number of comments shortly.

Digest should have rated Kingsley Club and Black Mesa among its top 100 courses. When I see the likes of Sycamore Hills and The Preserve, to name just two that make it, I simply shake my head. Nicklaus has done far better than the layout in Indiana - and ditto what TF did at The Preserve.

[Joel_Stewart]

Eugene moved from 100 to 64.  This baffles me.  It's a very nice course, and very tough, with fast, sloped greens.  Once again, I find the tree corridors much too narrow for my liking.  Although Eugene may be a better overall test of golf, I strongly prefer Pasatiempo.
 

I've been watching this thread for a few days as well as trying to figure these ratings out.  As a Golf Digest panelist, the move on Eugene is the biggest surprise.  I haven't played it in a few years so maybe they did something or possibly the Northwest panelists vote in conjunction along with Sahalee to keep it on the list???

I agree with Jim Franklin that it appears Friars Head is not getting the required number of panelists.  I place Friars Head in the Top 30.  I also place Pasatiempo in the top 100 someplace.

[Sean Leary]

Joel,

Eugene CC added new tees to lengthen the golf course in the last year or so.  They take their rankings very seriously there, so I am sure they are pleased.  Perhaps more raters are getting there on the way to Bandon, but I find it curious as well..

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kudos to Golfweek on two main fronts ...

Augusta National needs to drop. Digest people are still walking in a fog on that one.

Medinah #3 is not #11 in the nation. That is clearly a major differences with Golfweek which has the course where it belongs.

I've monitored the debate on this thread for quite some time and I will post a number of comments shortly.

Digest should have rated Kingsley Club and Black Mesa among its top 100 courses. When I see the likes of Sycamore Hills and The Preserve, to name just two that make it, I simply shake my head. Nicklaus has done far better than the layout in Indiana - and ditto what TF did at The Preserve.

Matt,  Courses like ANGC do not let panelists play unless accompanied by a member.  In general that means the same guys rate it year after year.  I don't suspect that it will drop much.  Although maybe fifteen years ago it did drop out of the top ten.  

I agree Medinah is not the 11th best course in the country but it is a top fifty course.  The difference between 11 and fifty is only three and one-half points. In fact the difference between fifty and 100 is only two points.

Sycamore Hills does baffle me.  It dropped off last year and I am surprised it came back on.

I disagree about the Preserve.  Outside the first hole I thought it was a very strong and fun course.  It is one of the few hundred courses that could be in the top 100.

I think Kingsley is amazing.  I even like number nine and it may be the most unusual green I have ever tried to hit.  I know enough panelists to know that there is a crossection of folks that absolutely hate it.  Too many panelists on GD are too stuck on "fair."  The GW guys I know don't seem to have as great a crossection of folks.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

It's time for people to separate the importance of self interest (getting on places) and in providing frank assessments on what courses are like today.

Augusta lives off the reputation of The Masters. The course has now been doctored to a mega sense and is way beyond the aspects of what was originally intended. At least Golfweek has seen fit to reflect some sort of acknowledgement in this regard. Digest is in the heavy fog on that particular score.

Tommy, I don't know how many TF layouts you have played. However, if you see The Preserve (which I have played) is beyond the likes of Karsten Creek, Dallas National and Glenwild then we are on different pages. The Preserve gets high scores because of its exclusivity and the tony address it has in California. A good layout no doubt -- top 100 when compared to other TF layouts that were left off -- not in my book.

Kingsley is just one of a number of layouts that Digest has failed to absorb for what it offers. The course is easily among the top ten in MI -- I am being very conservative in saying just that -- and what amazes me even more so is how much Whitten loved the course and how the 800+ panel Digest has can be so utterly clueless on its greatness.

Medinah needs to drop -- whether it's 30 or 40 places doesn't matter. It is one dimensional in so many respects. Having it at #11 and seeing the quality names below it speaks volumes to me on what too many Digest raters see as being imperative when rating the best American layouts.

Last item -- Sycamore Hills is not even in the top 5-6 courses for me in all of Indiana. I'd much rather play The Trophy Club and a number of others. Jack has indeed done better and returning Sycamore Hills to the top 100 doesn't reflect where the Bear today.

[Ari Techner]

Joel,

Eugene CC added new tees to lengthen the golf course in the last year or so.  They take their rankings very seriously there, so I am sure they are pleased.  Perhaps more raters are getting there on the way to Bandon, but I find it curious as well..

As a member at Eugene CC I was quite pleasantly surprised when the new rankings came out.  I had a talk with the guys in the shop and it appears that we had a huge increase in raters over the last 2 years, up to almost 40 from less than 5 the previous 2 years.  I am sure the Bandon effect had alot to do with it.  

[JR Potts]

Medinah needs to drop -- whether it's 30 or 40 places doesn't matter. It is one dimensional in so many respects. Having it at #11 and seeing the quality names below it speaks volumes to me on what too many Digest raters see as being imperative when rating the best American layouts.

What has spoken volumes?  Details please?

[tlavin]

Medinah is overrated on the GD list and underrated on the GW list, but that is just one man's opinion which is why all of this subjective banter is getting a little silly.  There's no doubt that there is a negative "group think" among the GW crew when it comes to Medinah and maybe it's because they buy into the sophistry that Matt Ward is pushing: that Medinah is too one-dimensional.  Whatever the cause, it's probably an overreaction among the minimalists on GW that pushes it so low and an overreaction among the "resistance to scoring" ethos on Golf Digest that gets it so high.

[Jim Nugent]

Terry, what do you think of Medinah's greens?  On TV during last year's PGA, it looked like no putt broke more than about six inches or so.  

[Matt_Ward]

Terry L:

I'm not selling something on Medinah #3 that plenty of others aren't already buying. The Golfweek assessment on the course is spot on and if you believe the layout is worthy of being at the highest of highest levels (#11 from Digest) than you need to both see and play a number of other worthy candidates.


Ryan P:

Check out the quality names that finished below Medinah #3 in the Digest top 100 rankings. Please knock yourself out and let me know if you think any of those courses are worthy to be ahead of the Illinois layout. I can name plenty of them from my own personal experience. Keep this in mind -- having the wherewithal to host a major championship is often tied to other elements -- sometimes the architectural qualities (or lack thereof) are relegated to the back pages of consideration.

Case in point -- Riviera is miles beyond Medinah #3 when pure design is evaluated IMHO.

[Jim Franklin]

I hope to play Medinah when I go to Chicago this summer then I can participate in this discussion. I am having a hard time believing it is not great.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The issue is not whether the course is great -- but greater than others that finished below it.

Riviera is just one clear example. Winged Foot / West and Bethpage Black, to name just two other examples, are also in that category beyond the Illinois layout.

[JR Potts]

Terry L:

I'm not selling something on Medinah #3 that plenty of others aren't already buying. The Golfweek assessment on the course is spot on and if you believe the layout is worthy of being at the highest of highest levels (#11 from Digest) than you need to both see and play a number of other worthy candidates.

That's the first time that I've seen the gauntlet thrown down on the courses that Lavin has frequented.  I must say, it was thrown down on the wrong feet.


Ryan P:

Check out the quality names that finished below Medinah #3 in the Digest top 100 rankings. Please knock yourself out and let me know if you think any of those courses are worthy to be ahead of the Illinois layout. I can name plenty of them from my own personal experience. Keep this in mind -- having the wherewithal to host a major championship is often tied to other elements -- sometimes the architectural qualities (or lack thereof) are relegated to the back pages of consideration.

Case in point -- Riviera is miles beyond Medinah #3 when pure design is evaluated IMHO.

Matt - I can appreciate your opinions.  However, you still haven't answered my question.  And the defense that others are buying your critique of the ranking does little to sell your point to me.  Is Medinah overrated at 11?  Maybe.  Did hundreds of people rate it there....yes.  I played Riviera twice last year.  I loved it.  But I would take Medinah over Riviera any day of the week.  And that opinion was shared by the other 7 people I was with.  Subjective rankings always require subjective argument.  Because you can name courses "below" Medinah that deserve to be "above" it also does little to support your argument.  I also find it curious that 1-10 and 12-25 seem okay...but #11....that is an abberation that voids the reliability of the ranking.  It doesn't add up.

[Andrew Cunningham]

I played Medinah No.3 six weeks before the Open last year and found it very difficult - especially when I missed the fairway.  I thoroughly enjoyed the variety of holes, US Open like conditions (despite their difficulty), and the ambiance of the course.  If you removed Resistance to Scoring as a criterion perhaps it would be ranked too high relative to the other rarefied company in which it sits.  But if you analyze all of the US Open and PGA Championship venues’ rankings following the year they hosted a major my guess is that they would all be ranked higher relative to their pre-major ranking.  I believe Pebble Beach was number one on GD’s list in 2001 the year after they hosted the US Open.  Remember that Golf Digest started their rankings as America’s Toughest Golf Courses and Resistance to Scoring remains an important element in their evaluation criteria.

[cary lichtenstein]

I never really liked Medinah when I lived in Chicago, although I played it many times at bank outings. I too thought it was one dimensions, hit it straight or punch out was pretty much the case.

I always like Cog Hill #4 better, even though it was public.

CG is definitely less resistant to scoring, as it leant itself to creative recovery shoots, probably why Tiger has done so well there.

[Paul Richards]

This list is only a very minor improvement over the ridiculous 2005 list.


I have played over 90 courses on this list, so I do have a basis of comparison.  The placing of a number of courses leaves room for discussion, but I would like to mention that my initial impression is that Rich Harvest (#45), Sand Ridge (60) and Eugene (64) make me go 'huh?'  

None of these would make my personal top 100 Modern, let alone the top 100 in the US.


Oh, silly me.

[cary lichtenstein]

This list is only a very minor improvement over the ridiculous 2005 list.


I have played over 90 courses on this list, so I do have a basis of comparison.  The placing of a number of courses leaves room for discussion, but I would like to mention that my initial impression is that Rich Harvest (#45), Sand Ridge (60) and Eugene (64) make me go 'huh?'  

None of these would make my personal top 100 Modern, let alone the top 100 in the US.


Oh, silly me.

Paul:

I have played over 90 courses on this list as well, and I have to tatally agree with you. There are a few others as well.

Cary

[Steve Lapper]

 

I agree with Jim Franklin that it appears Friars Head is not getting the required number of panelists.  I place Friars Head in the Top 30.  I also place Pasatiempo in the top 100 someplace.

Gents,

    Don't forget that this is a proactive choice by the ownership at Friars Head. Ken & Co. see absolutely NO reason to partake in this silliness and thus strive to avoid it by not extending any playing privileges to known raters. If one should slip through the crack, well then, so be it, but players seeking to rate the course  are not welcome. Such an attitude, quite frankly, is quite refreshing. More of this would simply shed an even brighter light on the absurdity of this panel and its abilities.


On the subject of Medinah's rating, like Cary, et.al., I used to play it 3-4X per year for the 14 years I lived in Chicago. It's a wonderful test of penal golf, but so very one dimensional relative to so many of the courses that fell behind it. Places like Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Prairie Dunes, LACC, SFGC, Garden City, Harbor Town etc...all offer ANY golfer a greater chance to exercise their shot-making skills, their sensory perceptions, and inherent golf fun meter.

Even if measured solely on the merit of its penality, Medinah falls short when compared to the likes and scale of Bethpage Black, The Ocean Course, Southern Hills, and Whistling Straights.

Resistance to scoring is near wholly dependent on the corridors of hardwood and the length of the green's grass. Interaction with a natural defense like the wind is limited to pure guesswork as the landscape is so dominated by large, mature trees that indiscriminate swirling is the prevailing wind direction on any given hole or part of the property.

It is indeed a sturdy test of a straight hitter, but little else. This ranking, IMHO, is purely a function of the laziness or prostitution of those GD raters impressed by the recent & future hosting of major PGA events.

[Tags:]

Tags: