[Patrick_Mucci]

like wanting a classic golf course to host a U.S. Open.

Take Winged Foot, a wonderful golf course with spectacular greens.

With the demand for increased green speeds, in golf in general, in competitions, amateur and professional, on the PGA Tour and especially in Major Championships, the host club, usually at the suggestion of the organization sponsoring the Championship can be pressured into speeding up their greens, and worse yet, they can be pressured into flattening their putting surfaces to accomodate increased speeds.

Flattening greens inherently reduces/eliminates their character and wonderful playing qualities.

I've heard that it happened and is continuing to happen at Winged Foot, and it could be happening at Merion.

All of you who complained, lobbied and clamored for a U.S. Open at Merion, got your wish.

Now, what will you say if you learn that the 12th and 15th greens, and perhaps others, may be altered/disfigured/flattened to accomodate the need for higher green speeds at the U.S. Open ?

What's always mystified me is why a club would make alterations for 60 to 150 guys who play the golf course for a few days, once every ten years or so, totally ignoring the hundreds of members and member's guests who play hundreds of thousands of rounds over ten years.

Is hosting a U.S. Open so important to a membership that they're willing to sell their architectural soul ?

So, those who were kicking, screaming, arguing and demanding that the U.S.G.A award Merion a U.S. Open got their wish.

Are you now prepared for what happens to the golf course ?

As night follows day, will alterations/disfigurement to Merion's golf course follow the awarding of a U.S. Open ?

A course that is so rich in history and tradition.

A course that may be altered, never to return again.

Is this what you wished for ?
 

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat - well stated.

I wish all future US Opens would go to Torrey Pines, Bethpage (no need to mess with those greens - although I could see them asking to soften 15), Pebble Beach and then a bunch of new moderns.

I've seen and played the work at the 5 greens at the East course at WF.  All I will say is that I hope they do not do any more on either course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Are the 12th and 15th greens at Merion going to be altered/softened?

Can I scream now?

[JESII]

Pat,

Do you think Hugh Wilson would have designed #12 as steep as it is if he knew the greens would stimp at 10+ feet day in and day out, and be able to putt at 12 feet with a bit of notice?

Would you prefer the other 15 or 16 greens to putt at 9 feet (thus eliminating much of the penalty of leaving an approach above the hole) so that #'s 12, 15 and 5 could play reasonable...notice I didn't say "fair"...

[Tony_Muldoon]

It was recently put to me by the Captain of a Club on the Open Rota that all these changes are for 4 days each 11 years.

[Adam Clayman]

Does the sponsoring organization and club think that if they have relatively slower greens the annoited 150 wouldn't show up?

[hhuffines]

I think I heard the Golf Channel guys last night say that
ANCC would be stimping around 14 this week.  14?
They seemed giddy...

[John Kavanaugh]

I think you guys overestimate the percentage of members that play these US Open courses on a regular basis.  I would guess there is a larger percentage of members who enjoy the status more than the architecture.

[tlavin]

I will second this from an Olympia Fields perspective.  The USGA demanded that we flatten out our third and 18th greens, ostensibly to make some puttable front hole locations with high green speeds.  

In the process, we rebuilt the old soil pushup greens with a cinder base to USGA spec, sand-based greens and they are not as challenging today and they have had nothing but agronomic difficulties (we did cut down another 50 trees, so the jury is out on the cause...).  We also had to make our bunkers bigger and deeper, with the hope that they would ensnare the pros off the tees.  Instead, the technology changed and they bombed over all of the bunkers with only a few exceptions.  The only people punished by the new bunker design are the members and their guests.  Overall, there is no doubt that the re-designed North course is superior to its predecessor, but some of the more dramatic changes (those two greens and the bunker design) still rankle to this day.

Hosting an Open is an unbelievable privilege and it leaves you with a lifetime of memories, but you are also left with a far different golf course, so Pat is right, be careful what you wish for.

[Adam Clayman]

Terry, Why not just return the old pushups? Surely the usga will kick down for the cost of the return.

[BCrosby]

...notice I didn't say "fair"...

It was indeed noticed. And appreciated.

As for Pat's thoughts above, I agree.

We may have reached the point where the harm done to classic venues outweights the prestige conferred by hosting a major tournament.

Bob

[JESII]

Bob,

Agreed to the extent that, if given the choice, I would never vote to host a major...not to slight those that do, but I cannot fathom the decision making behind allowing the tent construction process that happened on the East course at Winged Foot last year...the two members I know were none too pleased.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

Agreed to the extent that, if given the choice, I would never vote to host a major...not to slight those that do, but I cannot fathom the decision making behind allowing the tent construction process that happened on the East course at Winged Foot last year...the two members I know were none too pleased.

Jes,

I think that if you were in your late 50's and a member of multiple clubs you might reconsider your position on voting to never host a major.  Who cares if one of your clubs is down for a year or so if you have other great clubs to play.

[JESII]

John.


I think everyone of those guys have a "home" club. If Winged Foot was their's, I would say they were disappointed last fall...

[John Kavanaugh]

John.


I think everyone of those guys have a "home" club. If Winged Foot was their's, I would say they were disappointed last fall...

I also talked to a couple of members who were dissapointed...I think they were more dissapointed that the greens played slower for the Open than normal.  I never got why the USGA did that, but I miss Tom Meeks.  I do believe that they did enjoy being the stars of the room because they were members of Winged Foot and all the history that goes with it...People were not ga ga becasue of their courses architectural heritage.

[Mike_Cirba]

Do you think Hugh Wilson would have designed #12 as steep as it is if he knew the greens would stimp at 10+ feet day in and day out, and be able to putt at 12 feet with a bit of notice?

Would you prefer the other 15 or 16 greens to putt at 9 feet (thus eliminating much of the penalty of leaving an approach above the hole) so that #'s 12, 15 and 5 could play reasonable...notice I didn't say "fair"...

Jim,

Isn't the 15th green the "Eden" designed by Macdonald??  

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Seriously, is it your contention that neither 12 nor 15 would play reasonably stimping at 12?   Both are relatively short par fours; why shouldn't staying below the hole be at a premium?

Thanks

[Phil_the_Author]

John, you wrote, "I also talked to a couple of members who were dissapointed...I think they were more dissapointed that the greens played slower for the Open than normal.  I never got why the USGA did that, but I miss Tom Meeks."

There were also quite a few members who were happy that the greens were slower, yet the reason for it had nothing to do with membership feelings, rather, it enabled the USGA to have a greater choice of hole locations.

For example, with the green cut to a 10&1/2, the back left was now available for a hole on #10 and they placed it there on Sunday. If they were any faster the holes would have been limited to center portions only.

 

[Michael Moore]

Both are relatively short par fours; why shouldn't staying below the hole be at a premium?

MP -

Does this mean that you would be in favor of making the fifth green, a very steep green at the end of an extremely long par-four, less severe?

[JESII]

MPC,

You know I showed all the restraint I have in not initially asking "Do you think Hugh, CBM, HJW and the boys...".


As to your question, #5 is long though and that green is as severe as the other two.I would call 15 medium and 12 medium short. Regardless, at an honest 12', there are very few hole locations on either of those three greens. On top of that, there really isn't a "below the hole" on 12. Balls generally funnel back off the green at the speeds we're talking about. I think it's a great, fun hole. But for national championship play, some degree of control needs to be involved.

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael/Jim,

I wouldn't be in favor of changing any of those three greens for any reason.  What's wrong with having green speeds around 10 or so like they did at Winged Foot?

[Joe Hancock]

If any of our "Championship" courses were maintained as similar as possible to the UK championship courses, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The key word above is "maintained"....not taking a typically green, lush course and drying it out for 2 weeks before a tournament. It's not the same animal.

Joe

[JESII]

Winged Foot got a bad rap for their greens being bunpy, can anyone confirm that they were "bunpy" during the US Open last summer? If so, can anyone confirm that with some of these new strains of bent, it might be detrimental to the putting surface smoothness for them to be left a bit longer and thicker?

[JESII]

Joe,

Care to take the time to expand on that thought a bit?

Thanks

[Mike_Young]

I think 12 and 15 stimped at a slower speed during the US Am than the other greens.....I also think they can find a couple of pins on those greens but not enough for three practice rounds and 4 rounds of competition without wearing them out.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think 12 and 15 stimped at a slower speed during the US Am than the other greens.....I also think they can find a couple of pins on those greens but not enough for three practice rounds and 4 rounds of competition without wearing them out.....

Mike, you're only talking about 150 guys for the practice rounds and first two rounds of the tournament, and then about 50 guys for the last two days.

Those greens take more play than that on a typical weekend.

Compare play for the U.S. Open with the amount of play on Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor day, and I think those greens can afford variety in hole locations and the traffic.

JES II,

What you fail to understand is the natural progression of your rationale.

As speeds keep increasing to ridiculous levels, greens will become flatter and flatter, eventually making them like every other green on every other golf course.  Mundane and uninteresting.

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