Donald Ross Green Surrounds

[kevinT]

I would like to know if anyone has information on how Donald Ross designed his green surrounds. For example, was he big into shaving down the sides of the slopes to encourage more chipping areas close to the green? I played the Bay Course at Seaview Resort and was wondering if the green surrounds there should be shaved down or are they correct in being at about 2 1/2 inch height as rough? Any help would be appreciated in this.

[michael j fay]

I have seen no evidence that Mr. Ross shaved down any areas in his green surrounds. Chipping areas are a more modern invention.

Remember that Ross was a Superintendent before he was an architect. His approach areas would have been cut to allow for run-up shots, the sides reasonably cut rough and beyond the greens no manicuring at all.

The shaved areas at Pinehurst # 2 appeared in the 1990's and have appeared on many Ross courses subsequently. Chipping areas are not noted on any Ross plans I have seen and in no manner is it noted on the plans that the areas behind the backs of the greens were to be cultivated.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I had a conversation with a Golf Course Architect about this last week, specifically, the appearance of Pinehurst's green complexes with chipping area, and how they evolved to be as such.  It is interesting to see other courses pick up the ball and run with it--I do wonder how many, or which courses, were originally designed with these chipping areas, if any at all.  
Has anyone who has reviewed plans seen one way or the other?  

[TEPaul]

I doubt Ross ever had "chipping areas" surrounding any of his greens. This application, however, has apparently gotten pretty popular (Aronimink is a good example) and in most cases I think it works very well.

The only architect I ever saw actually call for something like chipping areas around greens back in the early days was Harry Colt in some of his hole drawings for Pine Valley in 1913.

However, Crump never actually created any of them at PV.

[JNagle]

TEPaul -

Your comments about Colt are interesting as photos we are using at Kirtland reveal large chipping areas where it does not seem so obvious.  

Photo's of Mannie's, Lancaster and Indian Creek do reveal some extensive chipping/roll-off areas by Flynn.  For many they have been the most enjoyable improvement at Mannie's, aside from the 100's of trees that were removed.

As for Ross, we have not seen extensive use of the "roll-offs".  It may be that a large majority of his greens were plateaued.

[David_Tepper]

KevinT -

While my knowledge of the courses Ross actually designed is very limited, I would think that seeing the greens & surrounds at Royal Dornoch (where Ross grew up and learned golf) would give you some perspective of how Donald Ross experienced/viewed/designed green surrounds.

Many of the greens at RDGC do have slopes/fall-offs of a couple feet or more in height, where the grass is cut rather short. This allows/encourages a shot that misses the green to roll some distance and presents some awkward recovery pitching/chipping situations. I do not know how these surrounds at RDGC were maintained in Ross's day (by Ross himself for a while!), but my guess is that the grass on these slopes has always been cut short and 2 1/2 rough would not have been found in these areas.

DT    

[TEPaul]

JimN:

The reason I'm certain that Colt called for those short grass areas around some greens at PV is not just because he drew them but he also labeled them textually (written instructions on his hole drawings).

[wsmorrison]

Jim Nagle,

Good call, Flynn certainly called for short grass around greens on a great many courses including the ones you mentioned.  Photographic evidence indicates that these were mown at fairway height.  

Flynn drew fairways wrapping around greens pretty early on.  I think Lancaster opened with them in 1920 since the greens seem to be within the fairway cutting and grassing areas indicated in the drawing.  Sometimes he used grassy hollows with rough (indicated with tufts) wrapping around one or more sides of the green and other times he used extensions of the fairways, indicating low cutting heights (for that era) grassy areas around some greens.  Huntingdon Valley, Indian Creek. Manufacturers, Lancaster, make excellent use of these chippin/collection areas.  Maybe the best use of this feature occurs at Shinnecock Hills.  Green fall-offs, bunkers and mounds create a great deal of interplay with the short mown areas below greens.  As the greens get expanded back to their original sizes, the features are once again having a strong effect on positioning in the fairway (tee demands) and approach demands.  

[TEPaul]

As far as golf course architects calling for short grass (what we today call "chipping areas") around greens it would not surprise me at all if some of the use of that kind of thing (or not) basically followed the evolution of mowing equipment. If that was the case it was probably easier to do in some eras than in others for that reason alone.

I have a feeling when the big wide tractor driven gang mowers for mowing fairways and the push mower for greens was common practice the application of short grass around greens probably fell out of use simply because of lack of maneuverability on the gangs and too much man-hour pushing with green mowers.

I do know when it became common to use triplex mowers on greens that many greens got rounded out and shrunk in size real quick for that reason alone.

Whenever we talk about the application of anything architectural to do with grass let's not forget to look first at the evolution of maintenance practices in something like mowing equipment.

[kevinT]

Well, let me ask this question then since we are on the topic of mowing equipment.  Would it be wrong to add these areas to the golf course even if the original design did not have them?  Especially on a Wilson/Ross design, would this upset the traditionalist?  I feel in my own opinion that it would add some challenge to a golf course that is now being somewhat overcome to new golf club/ball technology, but I also like to see courses brought back to the original design no matter what technology has done.  Would like to hear your thoughts.

[JNagle]

Kevin -

If the ground allows it and the roll-off does not look like it is forced, then yes.  We do try and look for more than just one hole to implement the feature.  I feel it adds great variety, interest and can add a challenge that is not presently there.

[kevinT]

I guess one other question I should have posed was, at what height should these areas be mowed at?  Would 1 1/2" such as an intermediate height be ok or should these areas be cut at a fairway height of around 1/2"?  

[TEPaul]

KevinT:

Good question about the mow height. If a course is going to do it my recommendation would be to get the height as low as practicable simply to create more challenge through a multiplicity of club selection (options) which often creates indecision. For some players that fact can get intense enough where some people call this kind of thing "short grass as a hazard feature".  

As for doing chipping areas on old courses even though it may not have originally been there, I'd say do it by all means, particularly if it's done well (ex. check out what Jim Nagle said above).

Jim Finegan once told me that we should remember that there are modern developments (particularly with agronomy and agronomic maintenance) that can make some of these old golf courses play better than they ever did.

I think this is a good example of what he meant by that.

[kevinT]

Does anyone have some pictures that they could add to this discussion where older courses have added these "chipping areas" to older Ross designs?

[Mark_Fine]

I agree about the Flynn surrounds.  Flynn used closely mown areas on a number of his courses including at Cherry Hills for example one on the right side of hole #2.  When that feature is restored, the hole will be much more interesting and challenging then it is at present.    

Getting back to Ross; first of all it’s just grass, if you don’t like it short, you can grow it longer.  There are places for closely mown areas on Ross courses around the greens but like any design feature, they can be over used as well and also located in the wrong spots.  As stated above, Ross basically ended his holes at the back of the green.  If you missed long on a Ross hole you were in never never land.  I’m not sure Ross would advocate a lot of additional maintenance on the back side of his greens but that doesn't mean the option is not a possibility.  

Adding “chipping areas” comes down to a judgment about playability and design intent and needs to be studied on a hole by hole basis.   That said, I don’t think every Ross course should look try to look like Pinehurst #2 nor would Donald have wanted it that way!  

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I don't know how the holes were built, but according to the Flynn plans, it would seem that the 1st, 9th and 14th were the best examples of intended short grass around the green.  The 2nd and 16th had one side of the green with a short grass surround.

The 1st hole was drawn (and a second iteration) with a very interesting contour around the green with the whole complex surrounded by short grass.

There are other Flynn courses that had significantly more holes with fairway height surrounding the greens with Indian Creek representing the greatest use and Shinnecock with perhaps the most interesting given the variety of surrounds.

[Paul Stephenson]

Does anyone have some pictures that they could add to this discussion where older courses have added these "chipping areas" to older Ross designs?

The 7th at Rosedale in Toronto may be a good example.  Sorry, no pics Kevin.  Maybe someone on the board has one.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I don't have the MP in front of me but yes there are several holes that it works well on.  Some were not incorporated (or at least no longer maintained that way in early photos of the course) but as I said, it is only grass and can be adjusted as needed for playability and variety.  I think Ross would have felt the same but like any feature it should not be over used.
Mark

[Jim Thompson]

What do we think Ross' thought on mowing FW to bunkers edge would be?  Would he have been a proponent of opening up a rolling balls path to the bunker?  What about flat sand and truf wall maint. practices?  When did Ross bunkers begin to get flashed?  Size and shape - small and functional / nasty or massive framing tools?  I have my opinions but would like some help in loading my gun here at the new location.  Ralph,  we need to get together or go for a walk out here as well!

Thanks!

JT