Merion-USGA, Just kiss and say goodbye

[Tim Weiman]

Mike Cirba:

I have a very hard time understanding people like our friend Moman. If he likes the bunker work at Merion, why doesn't he just stand up and tell us why.

Why can't he more confidently express his architectural opinions?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tim;

I don't know.  

If he did, I might disagree with him, but I'd certainly respect his opinion and see what I could learn from it.

In recent posts about Tom Fazio, you took me to task for some of my comments about a new course of his that I didn't want to name because of the hospitality of my hosts.  I appreciated your integrity in doing so, and felt challenged to provide more architectural details to support my position.  THAT is what is most valued by many people on this website...not cheap, cowardly, hit and run attacks on either architects, golf courses, or participants of this discussion group.

In subsequent days, I happened to play two other Tom Fazio courses, Emerald Dunes and Galloway National.  I went to great lengths to point out my great enjoyment and extremely positive reaction to the latter, and wondered why he doesn't hit the high note more often in his more recent designs.

It was sort of ironic, where people who often accuse others of bias were now debating with me that I'd ranked Galloway too highly when I claimed it might possibly be the 3rd best course in New Jersey, behind Pine Valley and Plainfield.  

I had a similar experience earlier this year at a Rees Jones course, Olde Kinderhook in upstate NY.  It is superb, and clearly belongs in GolfWeek's Top 100 modern.  Yet, yesterday I played a 1999 Rees design at a very classy and elegant new club in PA, and it's perhaps a 5.5 at best, due to an unwieldly routing, massive amounts of earth unneccessarily moved, a failure to inspire or create much interest, and too many wetlands coming into play and used as lengthy crossing hazards.

Bias is only bias when one doesn't reasonably explain their views.

Sounds like Moman to me.    

[TEPaul]

Maybe you weren't all that crazy about the last course you mentioned Mike, but you had to love that clubhouse!

[Mike_Cirba]

ahhh Tom!

You're much too perceptive!

Wonderful clubhouse, and very reminiscent of Stonewall.  In fact, it is one of the most welcoming, enjoyable, hospitable and well-conditioned clubs I've seen.  Thus, they shall remain nameless, despite Tim's protestations, and the shortcomings of the golf course notwithstanding.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

I don't know how you can have a discussion with someone who has never seen AND played the bunkers.

You can answer questions they have, but I don't see how a bi-lateral discussion is possible.  On the other hand, I do recall people on this site, never having seen a golf course speaking to the merits or demerits of the play of a course.  

It's doubtful that someone who has never seen the  bunkers could discuss how they play or function or even look, despite all of the photos presented.

I would be happy to try to answer any questions you have relative to the bunkers at Merion.

Mike Cirba,

A nice smile on the outside doesn't mean that cavities and root canal problems don't exist, and need to be repaired.

I suspect, if photos from 1930 reflect the same treatment of the bunkers that exist today, that over time, the new bunker faces will similiarly evovle.  In fact, examining them, I don't see how the wraparounds can't evolve through edging, mowing, the weather and gravity.

I'm not saying that the new bunkers aren't without their problems, but, criticism of them might have been excessive.
Strategically, they are improved.  Does that not count ?

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

A while back I expressed to a noteworthy Fazio critic, both publicly and privately, that I felt some of his criticism of Fazio went too far. He had acknowledged never seeing any of Fazio's work back East and I just didn't feel it made sense to constantly harp on a particular architect when you haven't the bulk of their prominent work. I felt it hurt both his credibility and that of our discussion group.

For comparison's sake, I described a man who grew up in San Francisco, played Sharp Park, but never courses like Cypress Point or Pasatiempo, yet still declared Mackenzie "overrated".

So, I'm with you. People should go check things out for themselves before making too many strong comments about either a particular architect or work at any given course.

That said, I think we should keep criticism of Merion in perspective. Since you recently visited the course, you saw first hand that quite a bit of work is underway. I recall Matt Schaffer telling me he had about a ten year effort in mind.

My recollection is that even the harshest critics have acknowledged much good work is being done. Moreover, I also recall that criticism of the bunkers was largely, if not entirely, focused on the matter of aesthetics. If there were many complaints about playing characteristics, it escaped me.

Criticism of Fazio's work at Merion, or should I say McDonald's work, was very strong, but it was also targeted and focused. It was all really about one issue: the APPEARANCE of the bunkers.

I don't like making judgements about a course from one or two pictures, but the few pictures I saw of Merion's bunkers (taken after McDonald's work) were representative of what I found during a first hand inspection.

That's my only point.

[moman]

Mike Cirba-Sorry I couldn't repy sooner. My cowardly car was on the road at a tournament on a bad Willard Byrd (redundant) golf course. At the Hugh Wilson earlier in the year the players raved about the changes and they aren't chopped liver. I just feel that often the Fazio haters jump in and dominate the conversation whenever his name appears and never give the course a chance. Pat must be a good player and knowledgeable person and he seems to think that Merion is pretty good and not ruined by the demon Fazio.

[Mike_Cirba]

Moman;

I appreciate you stopping back, and apologize for my "hit and run, cowardly" comments.  I do wish you'd post under your own name, though, as I think it lends credibility to one's opinions.

Played another very good Fazio course in the past couple of days at Kiawah (The River Course), and have not a thing against him as an architect.  However, he did completely deface what were originally known the world over as the famous "White Faces of Merion", and his overall record on "restorations" is horrific.  The work he did at Riviera, which I also saw and played in person, is HORRENDOUS.  

I wouldn't care if Tom Doak, Ben Crenshaw, Bill Coore, and any other architect in the world did the work in question...it sucks, and the fact that those who are apologists for the work are saying..."let's just wait around another couple decades or so and they'll be good as new" are both deluding themselves (why don't ALL bunkers built before 1960 just "evolve" similarly?), as well as trying to put the politically-correct, best face on the new "faces" that are as naturally integrated into their surroundings as Cher's.

[Mike Sweeney]

Merion is such a great golf course, and apparently on a track to improve itself, an OPEN might set that back considerably.
Perhaps the golf course at Merion would be better off if Merion
Just kissed and said goodbye to the USOPEN.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Will Pat Mucci be wrong?

Nice course tour:

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/course/index.html

[David Amarnek]

Just played Merion this past Friday.
First, it was cool to play it with all the stands set up for next month.  Amazing with all the infrastructure around the East and West courses, Haverford College, etc.
Second, the course was tough!!!  The fairways were obviously narrow and the rough (no intermediate cut!) was very penal.  I couldn't hit more than am 8-iron out of it.  I played with Jamie Slonis and he was able to hit as low as a 4-iron out of there.  He also played exceptionally well and carried us vs. our friends from Sunningdale.  USA, USA!!
The long hitters may only take driver out for two or three holes.
The greens were running very slow in preparation for the tournament and these guys had better get over there soon for some practice rounds before the Open week, as if it's firm and fast, that course will be a brute (even at 6900-ish).  Shame about 12 and 15.
Ian Poulter was just there and l was told that he was very impressed.
I'll be very interested to see what they revert back to after the Open.  Heard some talk, but who knows.
Finally, even before the Players win, the consensus was that Tiger should do very, very well.

[archie_struthers]

 



Hey guys, lets not get too hung up on the club guys hit into the greens at Merion.


Other than the ridiculous distances the new drivers go , it's really immaterial what number is on the club.  

Some of the new wedges are 44-46 degrees, not 48-50  back in the day.  It really didnt help the pros on 17 at TPC yesterday at 135 yards yesterday?  They need to gear down the driver /three woods ....otherwise it's accuracy that matters

[Pete Blaisdell]

Guys
  This may be one of the best and most imformative short threads I've seen. All great comments. Pat, I don't always agree with you but you make great points. Come this June, it all comes to weather.

  Mike & Tom--wish you guys would chime in more often. Brings a touch of class to the site.

  That's all the ass I'll kiss today.

 

[Pete Blaisdell]

Oops, forgot --one more point.

If its firm and fast--it will be a replay of Hoylake--Tiger by 6!!

[Matthew Essig]

Merion is such a great golf course, and apparently on a track to improve itself, an OPEN might set that back considerably.
Perhaps the golf course at Merion would be better off if Merion
Just kissed and said goodbye to the USOPEN.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Will Pat Mucci be wrong?

Nice course tour:

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/course/index.html

I think Pat's prediction will be wrong...

Once again, the USGA has an unbelievable flyover of each hole..... With poor music. Oh well. I'm used to it.

[Josh Tarble]

Will Merion be remembered more favorably if it produces an exciting tournament with big names on the leader board but the winner is at 12 under or a tournament that a lesser name wins by 4 or 5 shots yet is at +1 or even?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

You don't even know what my prediction is, so how can it be wrong ?

[Matthew Essig]

Mathew,

You don't even know what my prediction is, so how can it be wrong ?

Sorry. Maybe "prediction" is the wrong word.

I must of misunderstood your thread starter. In it you state that Merion is improving and that courses that hold the US Open has a tendency to tarnish the course a bit, so Merion holding the US Open might set it back.

I think that Merion will de-Open itself.

[ChipOat]

Matthew,

If it rains, your prediction may be correct.

If the conditions are firm and fast, I think otherwise.

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