[Mike_Young]

On another thread Brad K brought up the "in love with an architect" issue that seems to run on this site.
I had a thought.  There are 16000 courses out there.  I would wager that no more than 400 have ever been mentioned on this site.  
I saw one post telling Don Mahafey to try and emulate Sand Hills in his new venture.  Come on...
would you agree that the only way you hear of most courses outside of your region is through a marketing effort which is usually done more for real estate sales or destination resorts.  And most of these hired a " name " for that reason.  So we have "chicken or egg".
I worked for a Toro dist. before becoming an arch and saw many courses everyday.
I would venture to say there are 4000 good golf courses in this country many done by a one time arch etc.
Would you not agree that to expand architectural insight we must go beyond the few courses that are mentioned here and in doing so might find some unique and worthy courses?
Mike

[THuckaby2]

Absolutely agreed, Mike.  There are a LOT of great golf courses out there most definitely and the architect who did them is really not the point.

The problem is obviously that if I post something like "I saw a great course in Mississippi" the response, if there is any at all, is typically "that's great, good for you."  

Meaningful discussion in a forum like this can only occur regarding courses several people have seen.  And that tends to happen only with the "names."

So while there is a definite shared affinity in this discussion group for certain architects, I really think that's because many of us have seen their work PERIOD and thus can talk about it!

As time goes on and this DG grows, discussion such as you suggest will occur.  It just takes time....

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

I saw one post telling Don Mahafey to try and emulate Sand Hills in his new venture.  Come on...
would you agree that the only way you hear of most courses outside of your region is through a marketing effort which is usually done more for real estate sales or destination resorts.  And most of these hired a " name " for that reason.  

I disagree with the assumption that this is the way "we" hear of good courses. Word of mouth is the fore-runner for me. Maybe it's because I have been duped in the past by hype and/or photos which were taken from a rented crane.

also, encouraging Don to emmulate SH is a worthy goal.

[ChipOat]

First of all, we have to define what a "good" golf course is.  I'm sure there has been more than one thread on this over the last year or so.  Or is it such a huge topic that nobody wanted to get it started??

Regardless - 4000 "good" golf courses in the US of A??  That sounds like a bunch.  Even if we give total credibility to the GD, Golf and Golfweek rankings and have a liberal definition of "good", 4000 sounds really high.

I mean, is the 150th "best" course in this country truly outstanding or just "good"?

Example #1:  Deepdale (on Long Island) is clearly an outstanding club and a "good" golf course.  Is it an "outstanding" golf course?  You'd get a lot of votes either way on that.

Although I'm not sure where "outstanding" and "good" either start or end on anybody's list, and I'm not sure where "great" ends (although we can all agree where it starts, I think), my vote is that there's MANY more consensus "ordinary" courses than any other category.

I'll go out on a limb and say there's no more than 500 courses in this country that qualify as consensus "good" or better.

Maybe even less.  After all, it's HARD to design and build a "good" golf course.

[Mike_Young]

AClayMan
I am in no way slamming Sand Hills.  But should McDonalds try and emulate the best Restaurant in Chicago?? no...
This site forgets that in order for golf to make it, owners have to make a profit and that profit is determined by revenues vs. expenses....and if the market is $30 as Don says...then that means that maintenance budget, taxes, pro shop expenses will not be any where near sand hills.  ...not to say owner intangibles can't be similar.....
Chipoat,
There are 24 million golfers in the US.  This site needs to wake up...while it is a luxury to be able to discuss the merits of architectural merits of a select few courses over the years...it is absurd to think at the same time that these are the only good courses in the US.
Is Honda Accord a good car?  Camry ?...or do we just take the BMW 740 etc. Do we tell the owners of Toyota that they don't know what they are doing?  Is your house a good house or do we just choose 500 in this massive country?  I take exception and I think many other architects would take exception to the fact that you are saying our courses are not good courses.  It is much harder to build a course that functions and works with the budget most of us are given than it is to design on a choice piece of land with an unlimited construction and marketing budget.  
In the last 17 years I have designed over 38 courses.  You probably have heard of none of them but most all function and make money for the owner.  Many of the courses that are so admired cannot justify existence without allocating the majority of their cost to lot sales etc and then after that you have a built in annual maintenace budget that property owners will be stuck with once all lots have been sold.
Don't mean to rant.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'll agree that there are a lot of good courses but disagree with your premise that this site overlooks them.  Of the 400 courses that you mention this site talks about, we are talking about "great" courses, many of them are some of the best courses in the world.

I'm always interested in hearing about good courses and WHY they are good or interesting.  As an example, I'm interested in your course in Costa Rica but haven't heard a peep from anyone?

[Mike_Young]

Joel,
I understand discussing 400 great courses but would you not agree that in order to study the world of painting one would study Folk Art as well as the Mona Lisa.  The 400 are idealistic, the 4000 are the ones that have to be realistic.  IMHO
Mike
Thanks for asking of Costa Rica.  You probably will not hear much of it because the owner is not making ahuge marketing push for the masses.  He is selectively asking people to buy into his project.  But you can see at  www.haciendapinilla.com
Mike

[BCrosby]

Mike -

What is all this wild-eyed populist talk that there may be a couple thousand courses in the US that are delightful and fun to play?

Are you trying to say that if you don't play NGLA or Cypress on a regular basis that you might still enjoy the game? That your golfing life might, nonetheless, be satisfying without ever having played those courses?

Where do you get off thinking that the GW/GD/G top 100 lists don't circumscribe all golf courses worth playing? Or talking about?

Even worse, are you saying that we on the GCA need to get some perspective? That architecture is not more important than the joys of hitting a shot well to a spot where you intended to hit it?

Sheesh, Mike.

You need to get a grip.

Bob  

[Mike_Young]

Bob,
Will you ever forgive me?  I made a mistake.
Mike

[THuckaby2]

[That architecture is not more important than the joys of hitting a shot well to a spot where you intended to hit it?[/quote]

Bob - I've been hammering at this point forever here.  You'll not get anywhere with this, that's for sure.  It's comforting to read finally that someone other than me feels this way, though!  

Perspective.  Amen, brother.

TH

[Mike_Young]

Bob, Tom,
I think the three of us agree.  But as Tom says I don't know if anyone will admit it.  
Mike

[Andy Hodson]

Bob, Tom, Mike

Amen brethren! Count me as a compatriot on this topic.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike,
If you have a chance, could you list some of your courses? (or tell me a thread where you've already done so)  I love to see if I've played any, esp. since you seem to know a lot about the SE.

[Steve Lang]

I'd put it more like 1500-2000 good courses... 30+ averaged over each state (though I've only played one in Alaska).  Heck, Michigan has over 500 courses and probably 100 that are very good.  I've played on 20 good courses in Ohio and probably 30 in Texas so far and haven't even dented the DFW region......

I'd qualify good as any course that anyone would readily appreciate in any season, enough so that if given the opportunity or circumstance, they'd play more than once.  Pretty average Joe-sixpack or diet-coke-liter type courses that get the job done and provide some fun... otherwise I'd say the architecture forma and functions are off balance.

If I was driving down I-75 and near Ada, Ohio and had time, I wouldn't think twice about a quick exit to Colonial... or if in Lima, to Hawthorne Hills. In most of the 88 counties in Ohio, there's a hidden gem or two.

Would be nice if everyone had to post either a review of their home course or another or a my opinion piece to became a certified GCA member. I'm working on a My Home Course write-up for Otawa Park in Toledo, Ohio which I grew up playing, vintage 1899 layout !!! Promoted by Sylvanus Jermain, aka. Mr. Inverness... before Ross came to town...

I'm sure the definition of good, very good, great and superb has been defined on this site and some of the kilo-posters can find and remind us from the older threads...

Would be even nicer if Ran could configure a course listing / questionnnair feature on this site to find out how many folks have played how many courses!

[Stan Dodd]

A "good" course can be identified by the enjoyment that is derived in playing that course.  I was amember of a "good" course in which I derived 17 years of enjoyment.  It makes no ones list of the great courses in  CA.  But gave me wonderful fellowship, challenge  and satisfaction for a fair price.  And TommyN can atttest o the fact that it can kick your a**. Hesperia CC in the high desert of CA fulfills the function for which it was designed challenge and enjoyment for its customers.
Cheers
Stan

[Stan Dodd]

A "good" course can be identified by the enjoyment that is derived in playing that course.  I was amember of a "good" course in which I derived 17 years of enjoyment.  It makes no ones list of the great courses in  CA.  But gave me wonderful fellowship, challenge  and satisfaction for a fair price.  And TommyN can atttest o the fact that it can kick your a**. Hesperia CC in the high desert of CA fulfills the function for which it was designed challenge and enjoyment for its customers.
Cheers
Stan

[Dave_Miller]

Chip:

How does one define good, excellent, outstanding, etc as it relates to a golf course.

I doubt we could ever get unananimity on this issue on this site.

I may think course A is outstanding and TEPaul might think is not so good while Pat Mucci might think it is only good.

While we may agree that certain courses (Merion, Winged Foot, PV, Olympic, etc. etc.) have elements of what is a great or outstanding course or we may feel these are what we would call outstanding (who could not).  Is it not because they are so well known that we could get unanimity that courses such as these fall into the category of great.

If Merion never held a USGA or other Championship and it was just a private suburban Philadelphia Club and not well known it would still be a great, world class course but you might have trouble convincing those who did not know the course.

With so many courses in the world there could be plenty of courses that are outstanding and the definition on these would probably change with each of us.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave

[RJ_Daley]

Sorry I didn't get to this thread for a couple of days.  Some real nuggets here...

Tom H., that Crosby fellow is a sage.  You have flattered me by using that quote of mine about not being able to separate the "experiential allure..." for months now.  I guess this is what some of us are again reaffirming here on this thread.  Mike is correct in my opinion.  I don't have a good handle on the range of numbers of courses of design and maintenance meld merit "and customer friendly' giving validity to enjoyment to play.  But, I have a sense that it is closer to 4000 than 400 too.

PS:  I had to edit because the all important ingredient of "customer friendly" was part of my original thoughts and I omitted typing it on my first attempt.

[ed_getka]

Mike ,
 You make some good points and this site certainly is weighted towards discussing acknowledged great courses, but I think if you read enough posts you'll see a greater breadth of courses discussed than you seem to think. I have been visiting this site for a year now and have found more useful information regarding golf courses than all the media rags put together. I haven't golfed at one course that was highly recommended here that wasn't worth my time and effort to seek out. That is the most valuable aspect of this site for me given the limited number of times I golf per year. For example, I am sure the masses of golfers out there have not heard of Stevinson Ranch, Barona Creek, Rustic Canyon, Bandon Dunes and yet they are excellent courses here on the west coast.

I find using the Doak scale to be helpful in rating courses and deciding what to see. A huge number of courses can make the 4 or 5 level on the scale, but given the number of times I golf each year I'm not that interested in seeing those courses. Does that mean those courses aren't worthy of having golfers pay a green fee? Hardly. Different golfers enjoy different things. For myself there is a relative value I think every course is worth. In my area Pasatiempo is the benchmark at $135. Spyglass is not worth $275 or whatever they are getting these days. Stevinson Ranch at $60 is a good value. Most new courses in the Bay area are $80 and up so why would I want to go see what could be a piece of junk when I could play Pasatiempo. That is where GCA comes in and provides me with valuable feedback so I don't waste my time or money.

If a new course is built that is worth seeing, someone on this site is going to talk about it. That is how I found out about Barona Creek, outside of San Diego.

[THuckaby2]

RJD - Crosby is a sage indeed but he's not the only one!  I know a great one from the state of Wisconsin and it's not Gary Suter.  

I just do love that quote of yours... thanks!

TH

[Tim Weiman]

I'll bet there are 4,000 "good" courses in the United States. Just the greater Cleveland area alone there are probably 50 or more.

What do I mean by "good"? Simply that the course provides challenge for 95 percent of the people who play while also providing an enjoyable "walk in the park".

A fabulous "good" course in Cleveland is "Little Met". It is a 9 hole par 34 playing to about 2,600 yards. The course is almost perfect for people taking up the game.

Go down to Little Met for a few hours and you will see why the high CCFADs are not all that golf in America needs.

[Mike_Young]

AG Crockett,
It sounds as though you are from Atlanta.  I have done Marietta City Club redo there as well as Heritage, gold Creek,Lane Creek,Cateechee and the new Wolf creek.  My website  www.mydgolf.com might have some more but I have not updated it in some time.  Email me if you need more info..don't want to be promoting on this site.
Hod,
Welcome
Whitey,
Good comments I agree as to "good course"
TXSteve,
I am sticking with 4000 but even 2000 works
Ed Getka,
Yes, this site serves a purpose in recomedations that exceeds GD/GM/and GW...but I am still not sure that people get what I am trying to say.  There may be a great restauranr in Athens Ga that you will never here of and that is fine with the owner of the rest. He is there for Athens.  The same holds true for golf.  And be thankful...when a good course is done correctly it works for the owner without national or regional advertising etc(advertising raises green fees).  It serves its golfer and that is golf in America.  It is Mom and Pop.  It was before the mangement companies and it will be after the management companies.  My question was how many good courses are there..not how many have we discussed.  And if the truth be known I would bet much more profit is made by these "unknowns" than the "knowns"

[Jim_Kennedy]

tc.
Would you not agree that to expand architectural insight we must go beyond the few courses that are mentioned here and in doing so might find some unique and worthy courses?
Mike

Mike,
I think we might find some unique holes, or features and how they are incorporated, but how large an expansion of architectural insight would this be ? I think minimal at best.
I don't think this site has even touched upon one fifth of the 3,600 holes that comprise the two "Top 100" course lists.

[Wes_Pumphrey]

Mike:
Your "Athens restaurant" analogy is right on.  In this area there are tons of fun muni's and daily fees (especialy Ed Aults), that are almost without exception fun to play and are solid tests of golf.  That's the beauty of this game.  How many times are you going to hear Bud Collins remark about the great tennis courts in the world?  While most astute golfers or sudents of GCA know a great course when they see it, a good course is truly in the eye of the beholder.
Wes

[ChipOat]

TXSeve:

30+ "good" courses per state (on average) sounds high to me.

ND,SD,MT,WY,NB,AK,ME,NE,VT,IA - they skew the average way down all by themselves.

As to CA,NY,PA,TX,FL,NC,HI - they have 30+ "good" courses each.

My rough figuring assumes that the total number of "great", "outstanding", and "good" courses in any state is about equal to 3X the number of such courses that are in the collective G/GD/GW Top 100 for that state.  That's probably about 450 total.  Subtract out the consensus Top 50 that are "great" or "outstanding" and you're left with about 400 that are "good".  The rest are mostly "ordinary/OK" and more than a few are "pretty lousy".  The small minority at the end are just plain "bad".

Maybe I'm too picky.  I've played at least 10 courses in FL alone that many people say are "good" that, to me, are most definitely "ordinary".  I'd have to check my list of courses played to remember what they are.

Tim Weiman:

Since golf is so hard for 95% of all golfers (NGF says the US average score is about 101), I'm afraid lots of "bad" golf courses are a challenge to that 95%.

I think my definition of "good" has to be more from an architectural and aesthteic perspective.

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