Double standards, an old BIAS returns

[Andy Hodson]

Tom

I don't get this. First you hope you never see threads like this again, and I agree, so I look to get out of it and go on to a more "intellectual" architectural topic. Then, you get cranked on trying to find exit lines! What gives? And why has this touched such a nerve with so many? That might be a good topic, though I would rather take that up in a setting like George depicts.

So, to your point. One, is there something inherently wrong with crossovers? Is it a universal no no, or does it work in some settings and not in others. What if a crossover is needed to find the best holes on a property? Does a designer use it as a last resort? This may surprise some, but I have no problem with them if it helps create the best golf course.

And someone give me their experience with a horseshoe feature like the one found at Yeamans. I think it looks goofy, so I would like to hear how it plays.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hod,

The horseshoe feature neither looks goofy or plays goofy.

These features are also found at Montclair and Forsgate on par 3's, mostly elevated.

They provide excellent, tactical pin positions for incoming shots, and a challenge to putt to if the pin section of the green is missed.

TEPaul,

You may not recall criticism of Atlantic, some based primarily on the two crossovers in the early routing.  My point was:
You can't take Atlantic to task for CROSSOVERS, and totally ignore CROSSOVERS at Merion.  
It's a double standard and a BIAS.

If as some posted, CROSSOVERS are BAD, then they have to be BAD for everyone.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Crossovers do not HAVE to be bad for everyone! Did you not read the benefits to Merion that the crossovers on the front nine provide? That definitely has to be taken into account. To simply say all crossovers are bad is an extremely narrow minded and unanalytical thing to say! What if the crossover maded the course better than the course would be without the crossover? That's certainly Merion. Now what about Atlantic?

[Michael_Choate]

Mucci:

No bias.  If its old enough its deemed acceptably quirky e.g., 17 at Prestwick.  If its new, its unacceptable/inferior.    Things grow on us over time and we forget that what becomes comfortable or different may not have originally fit the mold.  Criticism becomes praise.

Mike

When ATLANTIC was being discussed in depth and in heated fashion about a year or so ago, many brought up the routing, specifically the two crossovers as a sign of inferiority and a failing of the architect Rees Jones.

But, yesterday, a funny thing happened as I walked from the
2nd green to the 3rd tee, the 5th green to the 6th tee and the 13th green to the 14th tee at MERION....... CROSSOVERS
With the walk from 13 green to 14 tee being considerable.
When I pointed this out to one of the fellows I was with, we began discussing LEHIGH and the crossover from # 1 green to
# 2 tee.

Now MERION and LEHIGH are terrific golf courses, yet they have substantive and numerous crossovers, and NEVER have I heard one complaint about either course in the context of crossovers, their routings or the architect.

So, ATLANTIC gets bashed for crossovers and routing while MERION and LEHIGH get praised without so much as a mention of the same features.

BIAS    

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

What was said was that CROSSOVERS were inherently bad, and because Atlantic had two crossovers, it was inherently bad.  At the time of the statements I had forgotten about Merion and had yet to play Lehigh.  My point is that the same standards have to be applied universally, not selectively.

Presently, there are no crossovers at Atlantic.

However, in the begining, some desired that both nines return to the clubhouse, which I believe exacerbated the crossover situattion.

I have always favored the following routing:

My rout         Current Rout #           Par

1                  14                            4
2                  15                            3
3                  16                            4
4                  17                            4
5                  18                            5
6                  1                              5
7                  2                              4
8                  3                              4
9                  4                              3

10                5                               4
11                6                               5
12                7                               3
13                8                               4
14                9                               4
15                10                              4
16                11                              3
17                12                              4
18                13                              5

But, that's just my opinion.

Would you like to play Atlantic with Ran and me on either
Oct 5th or 6th  ?

[Ken Bakst]

Pat:

You said that there are not presently any crossovers at Atlantic.  But wouldn’t you characterize as a crossover the transitions from 7-8 and 9-10?  And who cares anyway.  Anybody that said/says that crossovers are “inherently” bad should just study the subject a bit more.  Crossovers have been utilized effectively and magnificently in many instances, so each case should be analyzed independently.  As Tom Paul said, the crossovers at Merion serve a great purpose.  And I think they serve a very good purpose at Shinnecock (3-4 and 6-7) and Pebble (3-4 and 16-17) as well by way of example (and TOC too!!).  So when analyzing a routing, perhaps the question should be:  Do the crossovers help or hinder the routing?  Plain and simple.  Just because somebody questioned the crossovers at Atlantic doesn’t mean they are biased if they didn’t question the ones at other classic courses.  Merion’s routing is a work of art.  Can you say the same about Atlantic’s?

PS  Does the crossover in the routing at Friar’s Head make me biased?  

[3-Putt]

Pat -
I hear you on double-standards.  In my opinion, though, Atlantic never should have built the 13th hole (originally 18 on Rees old drawings which I received prior to joining) on the farside of the clubhouse.  The walk through the parking lot is just a bad one.  In my opinion, the club would be better served if it changed the hole to a short par 4 or long par 3 - it's not a strong par 5 anyway - in an effort to keep the whole course on one side of the house.

In addition, the club should consider making the 17th hole into a par-3.  The walk backwards from 16 green to 17 tee is just silly!  When you stand on 17 tee and look at 16 green, you've just walked a healthy par-3 (if not longer).  Instead, I agree with some other members, who would prefer you to walk forward off of 16 green to a new tee atop the hills there and make 17 a fabulous downhill, long par-3.  Not sure if you have heard that one yet but it's floating around out there.

Lastly, Pat, not sure if you know it, but there is a rumor about that Atlantic is considering bringing in a famous bunker guy to blow out the perfectly maintained and often not strategic bunkers in favor of - I know you are going to flip if I type this - the C&C look...

This would be an interesting one because the balance of the course is in no way consistent with that look.  But I digress...