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John Kavanaugh

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2007, 05:30:59 PM »
The book "Baltusrol 100 Years" is clearly the best golf book that I ever paid for.  Robert S Trebus and Richard C. Woffe, Jr. are great assets to the game and have written some other fine works as well.

I don't know the history of Baltusrol after 95 but it sounds like they are still on a roll.  They might even give Augusta a run for most storied course of the 20th century.  You gotta give credit for the role they played in womens golf.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2007, 05:37:21 PM »
I think at least one of the Women's Opens was played on the Upper Course.  Does that count?

John Kavanaugh

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2007, 05:45:28 PM »
Tillinghast wasn't even hired until 1918.  Lower Course made its debut in the 1926 US AM and the Upper course made its in the 1936 US Open.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 05:48:27 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2007, 05:47:57 PM »
John:

There are three stories about Baltusrol:

1.  The old farmer's murder (not golf related)
2.  Trent Jones' hole in one
3.  Nicklaus beating Aoki

Name another.

There are lots more stories about Merion than that, even if they haven't hosted an Open in 25 years.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2007, 05:53:51 PM »
John:

There are three stories about Baltusrol:

1.  The old farmer's murder (not golf related)
2.  Trent Jones' hole in one
3.  Nicklaus beating Aoki

Name another.

There are lots more stories about Merion than that, even if they haven't hosted an Open in 25 years.

Bobby Jones came to the 26 US Am holding three crowns - the British Open, the US Open and the US Am.  Jones was also going for his third straight US Am that would better the record of two held by Wigham, Travis, Egan and Travers (twice).  It is a long story but Jones made the final against George Von Elm and despite being the huge crowd favorite Jones couldn't get it done.  Choke?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2007, 05:56:43 PM »
That's golf trivia, I didn't even know that one.  It ranks below the story of Jones missing out on getting a putting lesson from Walter Travis at the Amateur at Merion when he was 14, and Travis not giving it to him until 1923, when it made a significant difference.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2007, 06:05:59 PM »
Tom,

Francis Ouimet acted in an advisory capacity with Robert Trent Jones during the 48 remodel.  The architectural tid bits might interest you.

If you don't have a copy of the book shoot me an IM with an address and I will mail it out as that is easier than me both reading and typing.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2007, 06:06:58 PM »
I am sure that Baltus Roll was one hell of a farmer, but we are talking about Jones and the Grand Slam. The 1-iron, the playoff, the snake, Jim Simons, wicker baskets, the 11th, the plaque and also the heaviest person to win a USGA championship- Chris Patton. These are just a few of the reasons Merion wins this hands down for me.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2007, 06:11:19 PM »

There are three stories about Baltusrol:

1.  The old farmer's murder (not golf related)
2.  Trent Jones' hole in one
3.  Nicklaus beating Aoki

Name another.



'67 Open - Marty Fleckman, as an amateur takes the lead.  Tied with Palmer and Nicklaus going into the final round.  Collapses.  Nicklaus shoots a 65, Palmer a 70 to set the Open scoring record.  All the while fans chant "Fat Jack" and root against him , while cheering wildly for Palmer.  Also, Lee Trevino makes his debut and the press think he's Italian.


wsmorrison

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2007, 06:14:45 PM »
John K,

Compare the histories of these two outstanding clubs, even with your arbitrary cutoff date of 1995, and it would be impossible to come to your conclusion that Baltusrol's tournament history "blows away" Merion; that is unless you think Opens are somehow more "storied."

MERION
1904 Women's Am
1909 Women's Am
1916 Am
1924 Am
1926 Women's Am
1930 Am
1934 Open
1949 Women's Am
1950 Open
1954 Curtis Cup
1960 Eisenhower Trophy
1966 Am
1971 Open
1981 Open
1989 Am

Merion West held Am qualifying medal play in 1914 and 1924

BALTUSROL

1901 Women's Amateur
1903 US Open
1904 Men's Amateur
1911 Women's Amateur
1915 US Open
1926 Men's Amateur
1936 US Open
1946 Men's Amateur
1954 US Open
1961 Women's Open
1967 US Open
1980 US Open
1985 Women's Open
1993 US Open

Just because you have the Baltusrol history book doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 06:16:35 PM by Wayne Morrison »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2007, 06:17:48 PM »
Hard to beat the Haskell-Gutty debate of the 1901 US Women's Am.  Many ladies that started with the lively rubber ball went back to the gutty when it was found to be better around the greens.  The eventual champion Genevieve Heckler started with a Haskell but finished her final winning match with a gutty.  All this just a few weeks after the assassination of President William McKinley.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2007, 06:27:52 PM »
John K,

Compare the histories of these two outstanding clubs, even with your arbitrary cutoff date of 1995, and it would be impossible to come to your conclusion that Baltusrol's tournament history "blows away" Merion; that is unless you think Opens are somehow more "storied."

MERION
1904 Women's Am
1909 Women's Am
1916 Am
1924 Am
1926 Women's Am
1930 Am
1934 Open
1949 Women's Am
1950 Open
1954 Curtis Cup
1960 Eisenhower Trophy
1966 Am
1971 Open
1981 Open
1989 Am

Merion West held Am qualifying medal play in 1914 and 1924

BALTUSROL

1901 Women's Amateur
1903 US Open
1904 Men's Amateur
1911 Women's Amateur
1915 US Open
1926 Men's Amateur
1936 US Open
1946 Men's Amateur
1954 US Open
1961 Women's Open
1967 US Open
1980 US Open
1985 Women's Open
1993 US Open

Just because you have the Baltusrol history book doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

Wayne,

You make a strong argument.  Did you know Max Behr had a outstanding amateur career while playing as a member out of Baltusrol?  Can you top that?

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2007, 06:31:48 PM »
What does "most storied" really mean?  

I quickly grow tired of hearing about Augusta, frankly. :-\

Pine Valley is more intriguing, IMO.  That it took as long as it did to finish is the weird kinda stuff I day dream about.  Crump wandering about like Henry David Thoreau, shooting at stuff and uncovering more sand.

What does it mean to be storied?  Does it mean well-chronicalled?  I dare say who cares?  

What is Pine Valley, then, I wonder, a romantic tale?  I think NGLA is fascinating, Augusta is not.  Old Charlie Macdonald writing people out of his will for beating up on his designs!   :D  What a neat place it must be.

 


     
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2007, 06:36:07 PM »
I know how much some of you guys like rankings but do you really need to start another list  ;)

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2007, 06:38:15 PM »
There can be no greater STORY than that of a 20 year old amateur winning his nation's Open championship whilst defeating the two biggest names in professional golf on a course where he grew up across the street and where he was a former caddie.  Making the story even more incredible, he did it in a playoff.  

SHAME ONCE AGAIN ON THE USGA FOR NOT AWARDING THE 2013 OPEN TO THIS MOST STORIED OF US COURSES.

They've also held a few other events as well...

1902 U.S. Women's Amateur Championship, won by Genevieve Hecker
1910 U.S. Amateur Championship, won by William C. Fownes Jr.
1913 U.S. Open Championship, won by Francis Ouimet
1922 U.S. Amateur Championship, won by Jess Sweetser
1932 Walker Cup, won by the United States over Great Britain & Ireland 9½-2½
1934 U.S. Amateur Championship, won by Lawson Little
1941 U.S. Women's Amateur Championship, won by Elizabeth Hicks
1953 U.S. Girls' Junior Amateur Championship, won by Mildred Meyerson
1957 U.S. Amateur Championship, won by Hillman Robbins
1963 U.S. Open Championship, won by Julius Boros
1968 U.S. Junior Amateur Championship, won by Eddie Pearce
1973 Walker Cup, won by the United States over Great Britain & Ireland 14-10
1982 U.S. Amateur Championship, won by Jay Sigel
1988 U.S. Open Championship, won by Curtis Strange
1995 U.S. Women's Amateur Championship, won by Kelli Kuehne
1999 Ryder Cup, won by the United States over Europe 14½-13½

« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 06:39:04 PM by Scott Coan »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2007, 06:45:10 PM »
I would argue "storied" means of some historical import, and I'd even go further, and say of some historical import beyond just the world of golf, and something that's recognized by more than just those fans of the game.

By that measure (and I think it's a reasonable definition of the term), I'm not sure anything in golf comes close to what Jones did at Merion East in 1930. It wasn't just a famous golf accomplishment, or even a famous athletic accomplishment; for national noteriety, it ranked as one of the most important triumphal events of the early 20th Century. Everyone -- not just golf fans, or sport fans -- was following what Jones was doing at Merion East. It made national headlines. Even modern golf's most notable events of the past half-century (Tiger in '97 at Augusta, Jack at Augusta in '86) can't measure up to the kind of reverberations set off nationally by Jones finishing off the Slam at Merion. (Ouimet at TCC comes close...)

I think the discussion here -- based on a great question by John -- suffers somewhat from the "here and now" syndrom of historical recollections. We think what's most important is what is most easily remembered. Sure, Augusta is the one course most folks can name off the top of their head; it's the most recognizable. But even for all the great things that have happened there, it's not the most storied.


wsmorrison

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2007, 07:38:24 PM »
John,

Why yes, John.  I can top that.  Max Marston left Baltusrol to marry and settle down in Philadelphia as a member of Merion GC.  In 1923 he had the second best year ever for an amateur (after Jones in 1930).  This was his record that year (excerpted from an old rough draft from my book on Flynn):

Maxwell Rolston Marston was born in Buffalo, New York in 1892 and raised in northern New Jersey where he played his golf at Baltusrol Country Club.  Marston served in the United States Navy in World War I and soon after moved to Philadelphia.  Marston married, became an investment banker and joined the Merion Cricket Club and Pine Valley Golf Club where he continued his successes in amateur golf.

In 1923, Marston would have one of the greatest years by an amateur golfer.  In May of 1923 in the second Walker Cup matches at St. Andrews on the Old Course, Marston teamed with Francis Ouimet, Bob Gardner and Jess Sweetser.  The United States team would face the British Isles team without their two greatest players, Bob Jones and Chick Evans.  Marston partnered with Bob Gardner to win the only point on opening day foursomes, the 36-hole alternate shot format so rarely played in America, as they soundly beat Robert Harris and C.V.L. Hooman by a score of 7 and 6.

On the second day, the Americans would need to win 5 matches and tie one of the eight singles matches to be played that day.  After falling behind early in six of the matches, the Americans rallied to retain the cup.  Marston scored a 5 and 4 victory over W.L. Hope in 32 holes.

Upon his return to Philadelphia, Marston competed in the Patterson Cup at Philadelphia Cricket Club’s Tillinghast layout.  The Patterson Cup was donated by friends of Joseph Patterson, a Philadelphia Cricket Club member and to this day is the premier 36-hole stroke play amateur tournament in the Golf Association of Philadelphia.  Marston won the tournament; play ended on Memorial Day, with scores of 79 and 72 for a 151 total and a three shot victory.  

The next week was the Philadelphia Amateur tournament on Merion’s East Course.  Marston’s total score of 146 took the medal in qualifying.  Marston would win all his matches, defeating George Hoffner, a past champion, 7 and 6 over 30 holes.  Taking both the Patterson Cup and medallist honors in the Philadelphia Amateur meant that Marston also won the Silver Cross for lowest aggregate score in the Patterson Cup and the stroke play qualifying for the Philadelphia Amateur Championship.

In early July, the Pennsylvania Amateur was played over the Huntingdon Valley Country Club course.  Marston again was the medallist in qualifying and Marston went on to take the title defeating Ducky Corkran 6 and 5.

Marston won the Merion Cricket Club championships in August.

Although there were no club championships at Pine Valley during this era, there was the Crump Cup, a select amateur invitational tournament in honor of the club’s founder and guiding force.  In 1923 the tournament was played as a single day 36-hole stroke play tournament.  Marston won the Crump Cup that year with a pair of 80s (39-41 in both rounds), 20 strokes over par.

The United States Amateur was played in mid-September at Flossmoor Country Club outside of Chicago.  Bob Jones and Chick Evans would tie for medallist honors at 149, one over par as the course had four short par 5 holes on the second nine.  In the second round, Jones, the favorite, would face Marston.  After the first 18-holes Marston trailed by two as Jones set the unofficial course record.  Over the next 16 holes, Marston had thirteen pars and three birdies to lead by two with two to play.  A twelve-foot par putt on the seventeenth halved the hole and Marston took the title 2 and 1.

Marston defeated Joseph Wills 4 and 3 in the quarterfinals.  His semifinal match was again as an underdog against the favored Francis Ouimet.  At the short 13th Ouimet hit a precise niblick to two feet.  Marston pushed his shot and hit a boy’s leg, which caromed onto the green and left him with a 45-foot putt.  The putt did fall, though just barely rolled in.  Ouimet failed to remove the mud on his ball and the putt wobbled towards the hole but hung on the lip of the cup.  Ouimet was shaken by the turn of events and would lose two of the next three holes and the match.  

In the final, Marston faced the defending champion, 21-year old Jess Sweetser of Siwanoy Country Club.  Although Sweetser would take a two hole lead at the end of the first eighteen holes and lead by one after Marston’s three-putt on the 34th hole.  Marston took the next hole, a short par 5 with a birdie to even the match.  Both men birdied the 36th hole and a playoff would decide the championship.  On the second playoff hole, a 220-yard par 3, Marston’s birdie try stymied Sweetser’s attempt for par so Marston added the coveted U.S. Amateur title to his outstanding 1923 championship season.  

How's that for a year, John?



Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2007, 08:39:18 PM »
Has anybody referenced the 3 other founding golf clubs in the US?

Newport CC
St. Andrews GC
Chicago


or


Oakhurst Golf Links (1884, the oldest documented course in the USA)
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Phil_the_Author

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2007, 10:16:07 PM »
Like almost all of the discussions on this board that take on a life of its own, a basic point is missed from the very beginning... definition of topic.

Anyone care to define "storied?"

Some seem to be defining it as course that has had events take place that have become part and parcel with the legends of the game, while others seem to be defining it simply by championships having been held without any literary bent.

So, how does one define and use the word "storied" in this context?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2007, 11:05:52 PM »

If Augusta is out of the equation, I think its Brookline. The combination of Ouimet and the Ryder Cup and the improbability of both events gives it the edge.

SPDB,

Don't you feel that Brookline should be disqualified due to the transient and hybrid nature of the golf course ?

The elimination of one hole on one nine, two on another nine and the inclusion of three holes from another nine with one of those holes being a combination of two others is a little convoluted and nothing like the normal course.

The walk from the reconfigured 9th hole green to the reconfigured 10th tee is a walk on one of the holes removed from the routing.

How can you view a course that doesn't exist 99 % of the time as a storied golf course ?

Wayne & JakaB,

Why wasn't the PGA listed for Baltusrol ?

Tough to beat a club that hosts a MAJOR every year.
A club with great history and traditions and perhaps the most exciting back nine in tournament history.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 06:51:23 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2007, 11:08:18 PM »
I don't know what's meant by "storied" but come up with 10 different definitions and ANGC will probably win with nine of them.

Jim Nugent

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2007, 04:49:00 AM »
The most common definition I saw online for "storied" is...

"Celebrated or famous in history or story"

I put ANGC as number one, and Pebble as number two.  

Quote
Why wasn't the PGA listed for Baltusrol ?

Because the cutoff date for the list was 1995.  That also left out the recent U.S. Amateur at Merion.  Both should be added.  

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2007, 09:14:10 AM »
No matter how "storied" is defined for this question (based on historical significance, current prominence, influence, or something other.) I think the contenders can be limited to a short list.

The Country Club
Winged Foot
Shinnecock
Merion
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Augusta
Pebble Beach
Cypress Point
Riviera
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

tlavin

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2007, 10:22:03 AM »
No matter how "storied" is defined for this question (based on historical significance, current prominence, influence, or something other.) I think the contenders can be limited to a short list.

The Country Club
Winged Foot
Shinnecock
Merion
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Augusta
Pebble Beach
Cypress Point
Riviera

Pretty tough to argue with this list.  When you get down to a debate about one of these against any one other, pretty much every one can make a solid case.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Which is the most storied course in America?
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2007, 10:28:27 AM »
No matter how "storied" is defined for this question (based on historical significance, current prominence, influence, or something other.) I think the contenders can be limited to a short list.

The Country Club
Winged Foot
Shinnecock
Merion
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Augusta
Pebble Beach
Cypress Point
Riviera

Pretty tough to argue with this list.  When you get down to a debate about one of these against any one other, pretty much every one can make a solid case.

If you are not going to include Baltusrol on the above list you might as well include Olympia Fields....I would think that Olympia Fields compares well with Pinehurst.  What has Cypress point ever done?

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