[Joe Hancock]

...make it a point to play your local mom-and-pop's a few times through this golf season. I know we all value our rounds and want to "make the most of them", but if we don't fork over a few dollars to the places most of us learned to play, they won't be around to be used by our kids and grandkids.

Hard to take a guy like me seriously, I know, but this is truly important to the future of the game, IMO.

Joe

[mike_malone]

 Joe,
 
   You are so right. I want to get my gang out to Paxon Hollow this year. It was a good before some of the recent changes. We are so lucky to have such good public options in the Philly area.

[Brad Tufts]

Was PH a Hanse redo?  I played there when I was like 15 with my Dad while he was in Philly on business.  I made him take me back after we drove by and it looked cool.  After a couple holes were still closed (it was April) and the 90-yd dropshot on 17, he wasn't too happy we played there.

Regardless, it was quirky and fun, and the pics I've seen of it recently look pretty cool.

[wsmorrison]

I sense a Matt Ward come down on you, Michael.  He thinks this area is void of good public golf.  What does he know?

Joe,

How about a family day where a mom, pop and kid(s) play for a single rate?  You are sure right, we gotta keep these sorts of venues thriving.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   I'm assuming an hour from Philly as inclusive. That takes in some good Jersey choices ,which should make Matt happy, and a few in Delaware as well.

  We played Karakung this winter. It is reminiscent of Merion West and certainly much more accessible.

[wsmorrison]

Karakung reminiscent of Merion West?  That's a stretch.  I haven't seen any Coney Island Whitefish at Merion West nor homeless sleeping in the bunkers.  My son saw say horizontal momboing going on in one the bunkers during one of his HS practice outings at Karakung.  I don't want him going back there at all.  

Oh, I don't think the architecture is at all reminiscent either except they both have tees and greens.  There may be fairways at Karakung but I'm not sure    There are a couple of fair holes at Karakung.  There are a number of great holes at Merion West.  Which holes at K remind you of MW?

But back to original point.  There is a definite place for the kind of golf Joe is advocating.  I am glad he reminds us of it as the new season is arriving--well, in these parts anyway.

[mike_malone]

 The second hole across the street is a short downhill par four with a creek in front much like a hole at MW. "Reminiscent" is not "identical" to me. Of course they aren't the same.

   It can be more of an adventure to play there, though.

[wsmorrison]

Reminiscent is not identical to me, either.  I know the definition and don't see similarities.  Maybe the vaguest of ones on the hole you cite.

It sure is an adventure to golf.  Though not one I relish my son experiencing.

[Mike_Cirba]

My son saw say horizontal momboing going on in one the bunkers during one of his HS practice outings at Karakung.  

Wayne,
 
Oh them?   They're always there.  

I believe that's simply one of the more distinctively creative features put in by the original architect.   That Wilson guy was looking for a breakout move after Merion, and I'm still hoping for the day that you come across his papers and sketches and see that feature drawn to scale for yourself!  

[Andy Troeger]

Joe,
I agree with your sentiments. I think just about any golf course can be fun to play. I think in my first three months that I've managed to see every public course in Albuquerque except one 9-hole executive, and I'll get out there soon too.

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe

Your thread title suggests you think these mom-and-pops might almost be done for. How come? Does it come down to not enough golfers playing them, at least not often enough?

The ones I know used to be a little out of the way; now they're right in the way, of new housing developments. If that's the case, can any amount of play keep them open?

Actual questions, by the way, not rhetorical ones. I'd like to get your perspective on this

Thanks
Peter  

[Joe Hancock]

Peter,

Thanks for the questions.

I do think mom and pops are in trouble. I know for a fact that, at least here in West Michigan, the numbers of golfers and the numbers of rounds are down considerably from 10-15 years ago. All I can do is speculate as to why, but I believe it's a multi-faceted issue. Kids have many more opportunities at school, sports and otherwise. Dads are much more involved with their families, which I view as a good thing. There are many other opportunities to recreate as a family at much less cost than golf. Kids have been raised on game sets hooked to TV's, and golf doesn't hold their attention....in general.

Urban sprawl is a factor for the disappearing golf courses. The amount of effort to make any profit from golf these days is enormous compared to the days of good golf growth. All costs associated with golf have skyrocketed, yet the opportunity to raise greens fees is restricted due to many of the factors above. So, many owners who might otherwise try to continue, sell out. It saddens me, but I understand....I really, really understand.

My concern is the Big Picture...when we close the doors on the courses that people learn to golf, who will be the next wave of members at the mid and upper end clubs? Is golf just going through a "market adjustment"? If the U.S. has, say, 15,000 courses, is the "right" number going to end up at 8,000 courses? I don't have that answer.

I think mom and pops are the beginning though, because it is the most disposable of all golf. If there's something else to do, or the weather isn't just right, or the regulars at the mom and pops are getting hit hard with higher costs of living...they bail on the mom and pop golf. At least, that's what I'm seeing.

Maybe you're right Peter. Maybe there isn't much anyone can do. But I'd sure like to think there's some hope.

Joe

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe,

thanks very much for that answer. I hope it didn't sound like I thought this was a lost cause; I don't, but I worry that it's only wishful thinking on my part, because I don't have any facts or positive news to back it up.

I didn't know that rounds were down like that, across the board (in the city I live in, most of the talk is about private courses struggling to get new members); and I didn't realize that it had become so hard to make a profit, everywhere, with the sky-rocketing costs.

I was also struck by how you describe it as 'the most disposable of all golf'. I'd never thought of it that way, but I think you're right. (If someone wants to play golf so much that he'll pay $100 a round for it, he's not going to bail because of some rain. Maybe the moms-and-pops should charge more!)

I need those types of courses to stay around. My wife and I were blessed relatively late in life with our first child, and I'd like one day to stroll down the fairways with him, and maybe watch him fall in love with the game.  For me, that's only going to happen on courses like you describe.

One of the reasons I'm on this board, as crazy as this might sound, is that I think that somehow, some way, at some time, there might be something said or done or learned here that might help that cause.

Thanks again
Peter

[Jeff Doerr]

...make it a point to play your local mom-and-pop's a few times through this golf season. I know we all value our rounds and want to "make the most of them", but if we don't fork over a few dollars to the places most of us learned to play, they won't be around to be used by our kids and grandkids.

Hard to take a guy like me seriously, I know, but this is truly important to the future of the game, IMO.

Joe

Joe, I promised my son more rounds this summer, so Eastmoreland and Glendoveer are calling...

[jeffwarne]

Joe,
Agree with your sentiments.
One of the biggest reasons Mom and Pops can't compete are munis.
If you owned a drycleaner and then a municipally owned drycleaner opened accross the street 50%  lower priced (but paid for by your tax dollars) you wouldn't fare real well.

Additionally, people will pay $100-400 to play golf on vacation at a mundane (or not so mundane) resort course, but will drive accross town to use a coupon for a $18 course in their own backyard. Then spend $150 on drinks and dinner.

Finally, the skyrocketing values of real estate (and taxes) make it hard not to sell out.

It does amaze me that a guy paying $300-400 /month(or more) to be a member at a club he plays once a month will state an $50-100 course is too expensive.

[Joe Hancock]

OK, it's first quarter report card time....

How are we doing on this?

As an incentive, I propose you should play 9 at a mom and pop this weekend instead of posting on the Michelle Wie thread....

Joe

[Tommy Williamsen]

Joe's comments on the Mom and Pop's courses in West Michigan is right on target.  I wouldn't be surprised it there are more of them there than anywhere.  I played a course outside of Muskegon when I was young called Oyler (Oiler?).  It may be the quintessential Mom and Pop.  It was owned, designed, and run by one family.  You went up to the house paid your five dollars and played the course.  It could be in the top ten worst course ever built but as a kid of 8 or 9 it was heaven.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tommy, I've had a different experience than yours, partly because I never played golf as a youngster and only really took up the game in my mid 30s...which means I was too 'old' to see almost any course they way you did Oyler, i.e. as Heaven. (I guess it's true: unless you become as little children...). But also, I've found the few mom and pops I've played usually very good tests for a number of different reasons, and a while ago I decided to stop trying to figure out whether that was by accident or design. I'm sure there are many of the Oyler type courses out there as well, and I hope they have many years ahead of them.  

Peter  

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Great idea and I have two suggestions for everyone in the Philly and Lehigh Valley area:

Sweet Water Golf Course in Pennsburg, PA
http://www.golfsweetwater.com/   A speacil recommendation on this one as I am close freinds with the owners Sharon and Jeff Vietmeier. Jeff is a product of the PSU Turf program, interned at Augusta and has been a Supt in at least three different states. He actually volunteered for the Masters. Jeff always has the greens as firm as he can. The ideal round at Sweetwater would be with your kids and or wife, girlfreind etc.. Let them take all the clubs but you limit yourself to say five or six. Work on your irons and have fun. I think it's a great value for the fee and they are very friendly.

In L.V. is Tumblebrook in Coopersburg. This course has been talked about on here before. It has been under a new management the last few years and I hear that they are doing a very nice job. Very fun course to play with glimses of Ross.

Pay these two a visit, you won't be dissapointed.

[Joe Hancock]

Sean,

Perfect suggestion...a turf guy who owns a course!

Thanks for the ideas...

Joe

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
Blaming munis for the demise of M&P's is like forgetting that 1+1=2.
Without them golf would not have experienced the same growth it has seen in the last 3/4 century.

Real estate values and the additional taxes they bring are high on the list. Have you ever seen a M&P sell for its value as a business?

Personally, I think the biggest reason they suffer is due to the minimal exposure they get. Read any golf publication and you see where the focus lies. Everyone is 'led' to believe they must play the newest, brightest, hardest and fanciest course built by the 'hottest' architects or else they are going to be missing out on the ' total golfing experience'.
 
Phooey!  
 

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

Thanks...but where did I place the blame on muni's?

In our market, there are only two muni courses, and I don't think either one of them factors into our play level much.

When and where was the last mom and pop course you played, Jim?

Joe

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
I wasn't implying that you said anything about munis, just making an obsevation about another post. Sorry for the confusion.

The last M&P's I've played are:

   Last Friday, and regularly throughout the season, at Rip Van Winkle GC in Palenville, NY. Operated by the Smith family.
   Two weeks ago, and regularly throughout the season, at Blackhead Mtn. in Round Top, NY. Operated by the Maasmann Family.
   Quarry View GC, a 9-hole exec, built and operated by the Allyn family. I get there a few times a season for a Monday night skins game.
   Boston Corners GC in Copake, NY, built and operated by Stan Peschel. Regularly, until it closed a couple of years ago and the kids sold the land for an Angus 'ranch'.
   Undermountain GC, right next door to Boston Corners GC, on occasion. It's also an exec and was built a few holes at a time by the owner, Jack Shakshober.  


There's probably a couple more that I've forgotten about just now, but it is Saturday and I am a little busy.

[Jim_Kennedy]

........a few I forgot:

Canton GC, Canton,CT. once in a while, until the Lowell family sold it several years ago.

Stadium GC in Schenectady, NY, once in a great while, owned and operated by the Hennel family.

Airways GC in Suffield, Ct., once in a blue moon, owned and operated by the Kemp family.

Penny Branch GC, in SC, can't remember the town but I play it every time I come up from fla.. Owned, built and operated by the McKenzie family.

[Dan Herrmann]

...make it a point to play your local mom-and-pop's a few times through this golf season. I know we all value our rounds and want to "make the most of them", but if we don't fork over a few dollars to the places most of us learned to play, they won't be around to be used by our kids and grandkids.

Hard to take a guy like me seriously, I know, but this is truly important to the future of the game, IMO.

Joe

Joe, I promised my son more rounds this summer, so Eastmoreland and Glendoveer are calling...

Jeff - Eastmoreland is hardly slumming it.  One of my favorite courses.  Playing it the day after the USGA Publinx was fantastic; it's just a shame that Portland can't keep it up to those standards.

I never liked Glendoveer, though.  It may surprise you, but I preferred Rose City among the PDX munis.

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