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Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« on: September 03, 2002, 03:18:03 PM »
If anyone's interested in getting 18 holes on a soon to be NLE time's running out. The original 18 in St. Louis' Forest Park shuts down Mid-September for a renovation by Hometowner Hale Irwin's company. The course dates to about 1913 from what I can gather and runs through Forest Park which held the 1904 world's fair and is the US's 7th largest urban park. A very unique setting for a golf course as I can't imagine Central Park with 27 holes meandering through it.

No idea who the original architect was but Robert Foulis was very active in St. Louis at the time, including designing Glen Echo where the 1904 Olympics golf event was held.

I hear there are some very significant routing changes that will make probably make this an NLE though I don't know the exact definition. The last time I played was several years ago and pre-dates an interest in architecture but my recollection is that it was a fun course with quite varied topography and severe greens. One hole plays across 'Art Hill' below the Art Museum which is used as a sledding hill in the winter. There's a very severe Par 3 that's all carry over a pond where local kids will bet you that you won't make the green and then fish your ball out and offer to sell it back to you.

A fellow St. Louis GCA'er and I are planning an outing soon as I think Sept 22 is the last day. Beware, as the only Muni in St. Louis it gets tons of play and is the home of the 5 hour round. We're planning an early morning weekday if possible.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

JakaB

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2002, 03:22:59 PM »
Buck,

Please let me know the date you plan to play...I have always wanted to play there...even more now before the hale falls.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2002, 08:54:21 PM »
Thanks for sharing.  Every time someone asks about quirky courses, I mention Forest Park.  Played it for $4 when I was in HS on Spring Break where my family went to St. Louis so my sister could see her boyfriend who was a Freshman at Washington University at the time.

The aqueduct hole must be the par 3 you mention.  190 or so uphill.  The ferris wheel from the World's Fair is supposedly buried under the sledding hill.  A 600+ yard straightaway par 5 running alongside the road.  And the "Fruit Loop" butting up to the course, supposedly a park frequented by gays.  Who could ever forget playing there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2002, 04:12:57 AM »
C+W state that Glen Echo was built in 1901 by James and Robert Foulis with some redesign work by Robert Foulis.  The Foulis brothers grew up in St. Andrews and their father was foreman in Old Tom's golf shop for 35 years.  James won the second US Open in 1896.  In 1905 the Foulis brothers (including David) patented the first mashie-niblick club.  

James built the orginal Denver CC 1902, the original St. Louis CC 9 1898 and others in Colorado, Illinois, Minnesota, Tennessee, and Wisconsin.

Robert built some well known St. Louis area courses such as Algonquin 1904 (my brother is a member and I will tell him about playing at Glen Echo, perhaps he'll call you), the original Bellerive 1910, Bogey CC 1910 (great name for a course) and others in Illinois, Minnesota and Wisconsin.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2002, 06:35:14 AM »
In the year and a half I lived in St. Louis I never made it over to Forest Park to play...now I wished I had!

I've driven by the course many time while at the park, or in the area, and never gave it a second look.  I had always heard about the terribly slow play, rather indifferent course conditions, etc. and just never bothered.

I guess that is a lesson learned...it's not always the absolute "classic" courses we should be striving to see/study/play...there are plednty of other interesting/historical courses out there for ALL us to experience.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

MBL

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2002, 07:17:17 AM »
WS-

Q re Algonquin:  was the current AGC layout the original Old Warson (prior to their moving to the current site that RTJ built in the early '50s)?   As a youngster, my family belonged to Algonquin, I'm convinced that track is the reason I didn't hit driver until I was about 25 --- every fairway is a bowling alley lined by (apparently) 98 year old, enormous oak trees.

Also, I'm interested in GCA feedback regarding Hail as a 'designer'.  I've only played one other course that he had 'designed' and I swore that I would NEVER again play there - an abomination.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

MBL

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2002, 07:31:11 AM »
JakaB-

Buck and I are looking at EARLY next Wednesday morning (9/11) -- let us know.

-MBL
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2002, 07:42:04 AM »
MB

As far as I know, Algonquin is on its original site and was heavily reworked by Geoffrey Cornish awhile back.  It is extensively tree lined, I know what you mean about avoiding driver.  I only used it from the back tee on the first hole as I recall.  Last time I visited my brother the weather precluded play.  A few years ago I played in his member-guest (we won our flight) and didn't use driver much althought the course was quite wet.  Maybe used driver on the last hole in addition to the first?  The course certainly helps develop long iron play although it plays pretty short at 6300 from the tips.

Best regards
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

MBL

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2002, 07:43:59 AM »
WS-

Let me/us know the next time you're through town, we'll try out a couple of other spots that you might enjoy!  Cheers,

-MBL
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2002, 08:11:27 AM »
MB

Thanks for the kind invitation, I hope to do so in the near future.
Regards,
Wayne
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

dla19

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2002, 09:53:18 AM »
Greetings, I'm Wayne's brother/Algonquin Golf Club memeber.  Algonquin is celebrating it's centennial next year and has been in it's present location since 1903.  It was originally organized in 1899 on a 9 hole course in Webster Park.  Extensive revisions were carried out by Cornish and Silva over the past ten years or so.

Old Warson was founded in 1954 by a number of Algonquin members, among others, interested in a "championship course".  As you probably know, Old Warson held the 1971 Ryder Cup, and most recently held the 1999 Mid-Am.  It's a great course to play.

I've never played The Forest Park 18-hole course and would be delighted to join anyone interested in taking advantage of its last few weeks in the original layout.

Anyone in the St. Louis area (or those just visiting) and are interested in a game, please feel free to contact me.
~David
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2002, 11:01:30 AM »
Good to know there are other St. Louis GCA'ers out there.

I played there in June and it was in surprisingly good shape.  I had not played in several years.  Be warned, the pond by Art Hill and 17 was drained last time I was there.  The par 3 with all carry is 17; distance wise it is not so bad.  IMO, the difficult par 3 is #3; that is the one that is 190+ all uphill.  A fun course.  The only Hale Irwin course I have played is Quail Creek in St. Louis so I have some trepidations regarding the design work.  We shall see.

As far as Forest Park goes, what urban parks are bigger?  I know Forest Park is significantly larger than Central Park.

I would love to join you guys, but Sept. is shaping up as a bad month for weekday golf.

Any other time you would be interested in getting together, drop me an email at stevepoz@hotmail.com

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Steve Pozaric

wsmorrison

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2002, 11:29:26 AM »
I may be wrong, but I think Philadelphia's Fairmount Park may be the largest urban park in the country.  It is a beautiful park bisected by the Schuykill River.  At the end of the park, on the southern side at the city limits, was where the original Philadelphia Country Club was located.  They were smart enough to move west given the population expansion and move to their present site in Gladwyne in 1927.  For a time they held onto the original property and had 36 holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

MBL

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2002, 11:38:06 AM »
David-

Thanks for the info on the OWCC-AGC relationship; I knew that one existed, but unclear as to actual lineage.  Agree on the quality of the OW course - and now that they have your ex-superintendent ;), it is in GREAT shape!

Let us know if you are interested in joining at FoPo - and/or if you'd like to get out together (Buck & I play regularly at Gateway National and I also play / have access to Persimmon, among others).  

Steve-
I believe another urban park that is larger than FoPo is Golden Gate Park in SF.

-MBL
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2002, 12:39:29 PM »
Some Figures:

Forest Park: 1,370 acres (500 more than Central Park in New York ) http://www.pps.org/gps/one?public_place_id=403.  Another site give it 1,375-acres

Golden Gate Park:  1,074 acres. http://www.pps.org/gps/one?public_place_id=74

You are right on Fairmont: 4,180 acres.  That is huge.

Gateway is one of my favorite courses in town.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Steve Pozaric

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2002, 01:45:13 PM »
Steve-
I took '7th largest Urban Park' off the official Forest Park website.  http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/parks/forestpark/

Glad to see some other St. Louisans on here, I'm fairly new to the DG but not to GCA.

Anybody know if the Foulis Bros. were involved at Forest Park? I'm a big fan of Glen Echo and Normandie's got a certain charm to it as well.

Buck
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

JakaB

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2002, 04:51:54 PM »
MB Lewis,

Set up a tee time for 9/11 and I will be there....I have a three hour drive so so not earlier than 7:00 am if you please...I can't really explain why but you will know me when you see me...Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2002, 07:57:22 PM »
Golfcourse.com http://www.golfcourse.com/search/coursedtl_ga.cfm?source=GA&courseid=10033states it was Robert Foulis.

Never played Glen Echo and, but for the woefully substandard conditioning, I like Normandie.  Nothing like a 240 par 3 finishing hole.  

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Steve Pozaric

MBL

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2002, 10:38:18 AM »
JakaB-

Are you NUTS?  Driving three hours for a sunrise 18 with two guys you've never met on a poorly-maintained, albeit historic, muni??????  I can't wait to meet you - God bless Ran Morrissett and GCA.

That said, can you make a 6:30 tee time?  Buck and I both have to work next Wednesday, so hoping to be the first out.  I've already reserved it - and sure hope this can work for you.  Best,

-Mark B. Lewis
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2002, 11:02:40 AM »
MB,

I am perfectly sane with a sprinkle of issues...I will be there as early as possible depending on traffic...start without me if need too and I will catch up...I plan on rolling the bones on the Queen after the round if you've got time...gonna be a great day.

If I appear to be late call me at either or:
812-890-9627
812-890-9628
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

MBL

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2002, 11:31:08 AM »
JakaB-

Guess you kind of missed that reference I made to "have to work on Wednesday".  Looking forward to teeing it up with you,

-Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2002, 07:32:58 PM »
How did the outing go?  I would be interested in your thoughts.

Steve Poz
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Steve Pozaric

Clone

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2002, 08:38:08 AM »
Dan O'Neill: The Forest Park course has just a week left
Dan O'Neill
Post-Dispatch Sports Columnist
09/14/2002 05:24 PM



Post-Dispatch sports columnist Dan O'Neill
The days have dwindled to a precious few. The 18 championship holes of golf at Forest Park, at least the 18 as a unit, have one week remaining in their long, distinguished career.

Those enticing, infuriating and incomparable holes will receive their final rounds on Sunday, Sept. 22. The following day, work will begin on the second phase of the 27- hole conversion at the Park, a process that is scheduled to be completed in October 2003. To commemorate the occasion, the Park is auctioning off the final 13 tee times on Sunday, with proceeds going to the new junior program. Each tee time accommodates a foursome and includes drink tickets. Call 314-367-1337 for details.

The initial nine-hole portion of the makeover, dubbed the Hawthorne, affected the park's original nine-hole track, otherwise known as the "Flat Nine," the "Big Easy" or, among us spray hitters, "Slicer's Glory."

Surrendering the nine-hole layout was not especially heart-rendering. That nine had some charm, a good walk unspoiled, a perfect place for novices to cut their teeth and a fine place to land cargo planes. But the old flat nine didn't offer much sizzle. In fact, had women never been invited to play the original nine holes at the Park, it would have been perfectly OK with Martha Burk.

But the championship course is a different story. If you grew up in this town and ever damaged your athletic reputation on a golf course, you likely have a story to relate about those 18 holes. A few might even be legal, some suitable for a family newspaper.

For the record, golf officially began at Forest Park in 1912, or about the same time Mike Morgan was making his major league debut. The final nine-hole segment of the championship course was completed in 1915 and it's safe to assume the first ball splashed into Grand Basin short of 17 green just moments later. The original design artist was Robert Foulis, a Scotsman who apprenticed under legendary Old Tom Morris at St. Andrews.

As you may know, there also was a Young Tom Morris, who was Old Tom's son and considered golf's first great champion. Young Tom died tragically at the tender age of 24, which explains why there was never a Middle Aged Tom Morris.

The new facility at the Park, the Norman K. Probstein Community Golf Courses and Youth Learning Center, or "The Norm" for those in a hurry, will be an equal opportunity arrangement. The three nine-hole arrangements will be interchangeable and compatible in terms of playability. The new 27 holes are being orchestrated by Hale Irwin Golf Design, with a nod toward Foulis' classic style and a respect for the bond between the Park and its public.

So it should be with no trepidation we turn over these 18 holes. But like every place we have been that becomes something else, we will remember them with melancholy reverence, like we remember the Mississippi River Festival, Hamburger Heaven and Rick Ankiel. We will remember early summer evenings when we parked the car on Skinker Ave., walked up the hill and crashed the last five holes for free. We will remember when we contended in the Publinx Open, the way Cher remembers being married to Greg Allman, the way Eric Crouch remembers playing in the NFL.

Some of the holes will be missed more than others. Most of us will miss playing the long par-5 No. 9, just for the novelty of it. We will miss hitting the green on No. 6, hitting the driver at No. 4 or making the putt at No. 15. We will miss sitting in that dark, dank clubhouse, digesting the round with a plump hot dog and a cold brew.

But most us will not be disappointed to never step to the tee at No. 3 and attempt a blind shot over the tributary and up the hill while the next two groups impatiently wait and watch. If you miss that, you probably miss Speech class. Most of us will be just fine if we never lose a perfectly good drive in the middle of a fairway after the leaves have fallen, when finding Dick Cheney might be easier. If we miss that, we miss vaccinations.

There were times when we walked off that crazy golf course looking like a man on an all-night bender, and times we walked off with a birdie at 18 and a burning desire to go around again.

Some of us joined clubs, with modern courses, primped and polished. Some of us grew fond of other public facilities, the country clubs for a day. Some of us still play the Park, for its familiar foibles and sentimental charm. Be it once a year or once a week, at one point another, we all got to know her.

The old girl will be taking leave of us soon, in case you want to stop in and say goodbye.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2002, 11:02:13 AM »
Clone:

Thanks for posting the article.  I used to really dislike O'Neill, but his writing has been improved as of late.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Steve Pozaric

MBL

Re: Soon to be NLE in St. Louis
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2002, 11:10:36 AM »
StevePoz-

We had a great time, sorry you couldn't make it.  "Barney" was great fun and the track in surprisingly good shape (particularly greens) with holes 5-15 as good as I remembered: it truly does have 11 wonderful holes.  I cringe to think about what will happen.

Quote of the morning (from John K): "you guys should lie down in the fairways in front of those bulldozers."

Let's play soon,
-MBL
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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