Seminole & Cypress Point: Overrated?

[Tom Birkert]

I'm not really in a position to comment about either as I've not played them (but I am playing Cypress this year), however I have played The Quarry and while it was very enjoyable, quiet, isolated and scenic I didn't think it was even the best course I've played in Palm Springs, so I will be astonished if I end up thinking it's better than Cypress Point!

[TEPaul]

I believe Mackenzie wanted a lower left alternate fairway on #2 but I don't recall why it didn't happen. I do know Mackenzie was upset with Morse for nixxing having #14 hug the coast and of course he was upset he couldn't put that back tee with the bridge on #18.

Maybe I'm wrong but something tells me the course (certainly the front nine) would feel so much cooler and more dramatic if it had all that unkempt sand area it had originally. The look of those original bunkers were certainly something dramatic to behold too.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Hand this guy a persimon driver and a balata ball and send him out there.  

The question I would ask is what are the qualities of a golf course that make it great for him?  I have no Seminole experience but have played several of the other top tens, including Cypress, and found them great experiences for an aging single digit.  The environment and ambience of a Cypress or Pine Valley make up for their sometimes lack of defense against 460 cc's of titanium and space age material golf balls.  

I have come to the point where I really don't give a damn about what the professional golfer thinks, their game resembles nothing I can relate to and their personalities for the most part are non existent.  

I will be watching NCAA basketball this week.  Are the golf pros playing?

[TEPaul]

I wouldn't even attempt to compare Seminole and Pine Tree unless golf architecture had some kind of set standard which thankfully it doesn't.

But for a thumbnail sketch I'd say Seminole has it all over Pine Tree in the area of the vertical dimension (the playability of elevation and sloped greens and such) and Pine Tree probably has it all over Seminole in the way its features create angles in play, particularly at greens and green fronts. Belay that, on second thought Seminole does have enough interesing angles at green fronts.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

That lower left fairway at CPC would be superb, as would a seaside green at 14.  And, if they could only have re-routed the 17-mile drive so that it didn't screw up the tee shot on the 1st......

W.H.

The NCAA hasn't been the same since the two-handed set shot became obsolete.  I blame Hank Lusetti....

[Brent Hutto]

Hand this guy a persimon driver and a balata ball and send him out there.

You guys keep saying that but it's a non sequitor. To someone born in 1980 who started playing golf in 1990 (using those years for illustration, I have no idea how old or young this guy is) that's like saying they ought to go camp in the woods with Civil War reenactors. Nobody plays persimmon and balata anymore and I highly doubt Mike's friend was commenting on how the course might have played when he was in diapers.

The question I would ask is what are the qualities of a golf course that make it great for him?

I think we can deduce a bit of this from the courses he mentioned to Mike as favorites. If he likes Quail Hollow, Harbor Town and Riviera it sure sounds like Cypress Point is a little on the wide-fairway end of the spectrum for him. He likes courses where you have to work the ball to smallish targets which of course is generally (generally I said!) at an opposite pole from the "strategic width" of fairways we like to talk about here.

Honestly, a lot of you guys are responding as though you can't even imagine there's a point of view other than a middle-aged club golfer who hits it like it's 1978. I think a course with the renown of Seminole or Cypress Point ought to offer fun and challenge to a young, flatbelly pro just as surely as they ought to be playable by a 60-year-old 12-hcp. Sounds like both of them do the latter better than the former in this guy's estimation.

Here's a fun exercise. Take some well-reputed courses that a Tour pro would love and evaluate them for how well they handle the needs of weaker players. Are there any great courses we could talk about that are of Seminole/CPC caliber for the flatbellies but "overrated" for the typical GCA Forum member?

[Ken Moum]

The question I would ask is what are the qualities of a golf course that make it great for him?

I don't know this gentleman, but I see and hear a lot of quotes from Tour pros and things they say about courses they like are are pretty revealing, IMHO.

"It's all there in front of you," is one favorite, which tells me theat many of them don't like having to figure out where to put their ball.

The other one that comes up all the time is, "It's hard, but fair."  Of course they like hard golf courses, they separate good ball strikers from bad ball strikers. And fairness generally implies some kind of proportional punishment based on how well a shot is struck.

And "good shot" is generally defined by whether or not it lands where the player intended.

So when he's 100 yards out, hitting L wedge to a hard, fast green that slopes away, it's the golf course's fault that it ended up in over the green. A "fair" test wouldn't have punished him for hitting a "perfect" shot.

The same applies to a ball that lands in the fairway and bounces off a mogul into the rough.

It's why many of them hate centerline bunkers. I have friends who say, "It's just not fair to put trouble in the middle of the fairway. Of course, they're the same yahoos who think they shouldn't have a bad lie in the fairway, either.

It's like the thread here on appreciation for quirk in courses.

Ken

[KBanks]

And to think that MacKenzie reckoned that Cypress avoided criticism of its difficulty because of the beauty of the setting!

I think TE Paul has it right on both Seminole and Cypress Point: their true greatness would manifest itself even more over time, under different conditions, etc. And, this has got to be due in large part to their respective routings, by universal agreement two of the best ever.

The tour pro does get points for crediting Palmetto, even though it is no Seminole.

Ken

[TEPaul]

"Tom
That lower left fairway at CPC would be superb"

Rich:

Do you think so? I was just looking at a photo of the old hole (with Mackenzie on the tee) and I was wondering if that lower left fairway had been built if it wouldn't have almost killed the higher risk option of going up into the right fairway. It looks to me like that lower left fairway was directly inline between the tee and the green and consequently a shorter route. The only drawback I can see to the lower left option would be the player would be down low on his second shot and perhaps sort of blind. Balancing really distinct options like those two so they really do stay in a form of equilibrium (that they both remained used and functional enough in play) can sometimes be some pretty tricky shit.  

But you know that course better than I do.

[Brent Hutto]

If Seminole were 7400 yards, the pros would likely then call it the "greatest course in the world" because it'd kick their asses day in and day out.  That's all Tour Pros respect - "resistance to scoring"...............

I'd modify that to add that they respect "tee-to-green resistance to scoring" better than what they might term "tricked-up greens resistance to scoring". From the sum of Tour-pro comments I've heard over the years I think they greatly respect any course that can make them score at or above par by something other than lightning-fast greens (which isn't a big deal for the best players anyway) or super-nasty rough.

I suspect the Tour-pro preference with the biggest difference from my own is that they seem to really like courses like Bay Hill or Doral or TPC Sawgrass with a lot of water. I'm honestly happiest with a course that only makes me directly challenge the water a couple times a round and that gives me at least half its holes without lateral hazards along the fairway. I doubt most Tour pros would feel that way at all.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

You tak the hi road an I'll tak the low road, and i'll be a puttin' afore ye.......

What is needed on 2 CPC is a low road (left) which is fraught with danger, but gives a real chance for birdie (or eagle) if that road is chosen and executed properly.

Winchester CC has a somewhat similar hole (14?).  It would be unidimensional (as is the current 2 CPC) if it didn't have the low road.

Ricardo

[tlavin]

Michael Whitaker,

What "old", "short" courses in the U.S. does he consider better than Seminole and CPC ?

I'll inquire.

Top 7 Personal Classics

1. Pinehurst #2
2. Congressional Blue
3. Medinah #4
4. Riviera CC
5. Pebble Beach
6. Wannamoisett
7. Newport CC

That Medinah #4 course certainly has stood the test of time, since it was never built.

Couldn't resist.

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael Whitaker,

What "old", "short" courses in the U.S. does he consider better than Seminole and CPC ?

I'll inquire.

Top 7 Personal Classics

1. Pinehurst #2
2. Congressional Blue
3. Medinah #4
4. Riviera CC
5. Pebble Beach
6. Wannamoisett
7. Newport CC

That Medinah #4 course certainly has stood the test of time, since it was never built.

Couldn't resist.

My bad cut & paste job... the #4 refered to Riviera as the next item.

[JESII]

Michael,

Seems interesting to me that Wannamoisett would be in his top 7 and that Seminole is so over-rated. If you mentioned it earlier in the thread, I apologize (I didn't see it), but did he elaborate on what it was about the course that he didn't like.

[tlavin]

This subjective classification stuff is de rigeur on this website, so I'm not offended by the suggestion that these two courses might be overrated.  I've only played Cypress Point, so I can chime in on that course.  There are a couple so/so holes at Cypress Point, especially the 18th which is frankly an abomination, but in my opinion, it is hard indeed to "overrate" Cypress Point.  The course flows effortlessly through the forest and along the shore of the peninsula in an ingenious way.  The Mackenzie bunkering and greens are beguiling indeed.  Then you add the undeniable majesty of the par 3's on the back nine and you have a supreme golf experience, even if your first tee shot goes over a hedge, over a road and in the general direction of the "driving range".  What a place.  I don't know where it belongs on the Top Ten list, but it does indeed belong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Whitaker,

What "old", "short" courses in the U.S. does he consider better than Seminole and CPC ?

I'll inquire.

Michael,

I'd also like to know, under what conditions did he play Seminole.  When the wind is not up, which is unusual, it can be benign in terms of scoring, but, when the prevailing and non-prevailing winds are up, the course changes its personality, considerably.

It's not unusual for 1, 2, 3 and more club length winds to buffet the golf course.

[Jim Bearden]

My dad was a member at both, played most of the top 100 he considered CPC th best course ever. Iplayed Seminole once a long time ago and don't remember it well. CPC on the other hand has changed due to the drought and use of reclaimed water. I challenge your friend to play it if the greens were cut to their 1970's height. The key to CPC is not length but the greens. When CPC was still played on tour it was like the second shortest course but in the top ten for highest scoring average. Personally I have thought for years if it were set up for a US Openit would be  one of the most difficult ever.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
If you think Michael's friend's comments are pretty astute, you've reached a new level of Idiot-Savantism."

I'm afraid not Patrick. If you did as much officiating of class A tournaments as I do and you watched what this new generation is doing as much as I have you would never say something like that. It's a much different world today and it's pretty shocking on that class A level compared to the class A player in our day.

TEPaul,

I no longer officiate USGA events.
But, I do play with these fellows, and am keenly aware of the distance issue.

Michael Whitaker's friend contexted the "ranking" of Seminole in the sole context of offering a difficult test to the PGA Tour player.

You should know, after 7 or more years of posting on this site, that the rankings aren't determined on the basis of providing a difficult test.

And, if you looked at the golf courses he categorized as "SHORT", Pinehurst # 2, Congressional Blue and
Medinah # 3, you'd see that all of them are very, very long golf courses.

Hence, Michael's friend should stick to PLAYING golf at the highest level and not delve into a career as an architect.[/color]

You can definitely stop that level of player from scoring really low these days but the fact is you have to pull out almost every trick in the book with course set-up and maintenance practices.

Scoring on a 6,700 yard golf course by a PGA Tour player has nothing to do with the architectural merit of the golf course.

If nothing else, a course in your own backyard, Merion, should have taught you that lesson.

Merion's over 7,000 yards these days isn't it ?

What percentage of the members and their guests play it from all the way back ?[/color]

If Seminole was set-up like the most intense day in the Coleman players like that guy would definitely not shoot 65 or 66 every time out even if he was playing well. One or two might on the odd occasion but not at will for most all players of that caliber.[/b]

Scoring isn't the issue, it's Michael's friend's sole focus to the exclusion of everything else.

You're raising Idiot-Savantism to new levels[/b]

Set Seminole up like it proably is for the membership every day and that friend of Michael's probably would shoot 65 or 66 every time out if he was playing well and putting well.

I'll book that bet.[/color]

It doesn't mean to me that Seminole or Cypress are over-rated exactly,

BUT, THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.[/color]

over-rated for what---a challenging course for a pro tour tournament?

That's not the criteria by which courses are rated/ranked[/color]

The architecture is what it is and hasn't changed---it only means that things have gotten out of control with that caliber of player on courses like those two.

It took you all of these posts and all of those typed words to finally figure that out ?

You need to get out of the cold, damp northeast to warmer climes.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Whitaker,

What "old", "short" courses in the U.S. does he consider better than Seminole and CPC ?

I'll inquire.

Top 7 Personal Classics

1. Pinehurst #2
2. Congressional Blue
3. Medinah
4. Riviera CC
5. Pebble Beach
6. Wannamoisett
7. Newport CC

Michael,

I think I see the problem.

Your friend, obviously a GREAT player, can't differentiate between "short" courses and "LONG" courses.

Pinehurst # 2, Congressional Blue  and Medinah are very long golf courses and Riviera and Pebble Beach aren't short, they're fairly long as well.

Newport is a par 70 that I wouldn't consider short and Wannamoisett is a par 69.

Since he considered 17 and 18 at CPC as weak, how does he view # 17 at Wannamoissett ?  Or, # 18 at Newport ?

If he can't make the distinction between long and short courses how on earth can he detect architectural features, let alone, determine their merit ?

In an earlier post you referenced his criteria for determining architectural worthiness, and it was in the sole context of a "difficult test" which almost always equates to length for a PGA Tour player.

As I mentioned earlier, you'd be giving him great advice by telling him not to give up his day job. [/color]

[Michael Whitaker]

...did he elaborate on what it was about the course that he didn't like.

Don't get me wrong... I didn't say he didn't like Seminole, just that he feels the course does not measure up in comparison to other courses considered "world class." My impression is that he sees Seminole as a great old course that services its members well, but no longer deserves its ranking as one of the best courses in the world. He thinks most amateurs are afraid to say anything less than glowing about Seminole in fear that they will be seen as "uneducated" or worse... unworthy. He is very appreciative and respectful of the history and aura associated with Seminole... I think he just feels it has seen its day as one of the elite courses and is benefiting too much in the ratings from past glory. I'm sure his opinion of what constitutes an elite level course differs considerably from yours and mine, given the differences in our game... but, it doesn't make his opinion invalid and it certainly does not deserve snide remarks (not you Terry) about his intelligence or appreciation of course design. I think he would be the first to admit, like Tom Doak says, that he represents a tiny fraction of the golfing population and sees courses in a different light. However, he does not discount the past or old courses... as I mentioned before he said some of the greatest courses he has ever seen are some of the old timers in Australia.

I'm going to ask him to read this thread and we'll see what kind of response, if any, he'll give us.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
You tak the hi road an I'll tak the low road, and i'll be a puttin' afore ye......."


Ricardo:

For about five years now that song or jingle has been the theme song to me of the very fundamental essence of what real strategic golf and golf architecture is all about.  

And if the hi road or lo road or any other way to travel from hither to yon is something less than completely obvious---so much the better.

Just imagine a couple of people standing and looking at miles and miles of open moors or whatever, and saying to each other:

"Ye take the high road and I'll take the Low road and I'll be in Scotland before Ye"

That is the fundamental essence of natural strategic golf to me----eg find your own best or quickest way!  

[JESII]

Thanks Michael,

I misspoke by using the term "dislike" as he/you certainly did not. I found it interesting that Wannamoisett made the list of favorites (I know it's overall favorites, and not "short" courses even though the eminent Mucci can't seem to) is all and was trying to find the hook.

Thanks again

[TEPaul]

"Scoring isn't the issue, it's Michael's friend's sole focus to the exclusion of everything else."

Patrick:

Where have you been?

When players like that play a golf course you don't think the membership will talk about what they shoot on their course?

You don't think they talk about where they drive the ball and such?

That's about all they do talk about---at any golf course. It's human nature, pal.

I wish it wasn't so but it sure is and if you don't think so you are really dreaming.

Somebody to Seminole members:

"Did you hear that Hank Kuehne drove the 16th green?"

Seminole members:

"Oh yeah, we heard about that but what difference does that make since we have such great architecture?"

[Michael Whitaker]

I think I see the problem.
There is no "problem," just a difference of opinion.

Your friend, obviously a GREAT player, can't differentiate between "short" courses and "LONG" courses.
I think he can differentiate between long and short just fine... of course, your "long" would be more in line with his "short."

...how on earth can he detect architectural features, let alone, determine their merit?
Maybe its because he is an intelligent student of the modern game that is not living entirely in the past.

As I mentioned earlier, you'd be giving him great advice by telling him not to give up his day job.
I take offense to these smartass "keep your day job" comments. This is a strictly first-class guy who's opinion differs from yours... leave it at that.

[JESII]

Patrick,

What you are missing in your analysis is that you asked Michael to produce a list of his friends favorite "short" courses. His friend, not realizing the level of idiot making th e request, responded with two lists of favorite courses and let you break down what type of course he prefers. Pretty fair input if you ask me.