Seminole & Cypress Point: Overrated?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
If you think Michael's friend's comments are pretty astute, you've reached a new level of Idiot-Savantism."

I'm afraid not Patrick. If you did as much officiating of class A tournaments as I do and you watched what this new generation is doing as much as I have you would never say something like that. It's a much different world today and it's pretty shocking on that class A level compared to the class A player in our day.

You can definitely stop that level of player from scoring really low these days but the fact is you have to pull out almost every trick in the book with course set-up and maintenance practices.

If Seminole was set-up like the most intense day in the Coleman players like that guy would definitely not shoot 65 or 66 every time out even if he was playing well. One or two might on the odd occasion but not at will for most all players of that caliber.

Set Seminole up like it proably is for the membership every day and that friend of Michael's probably would shoot 65 or 66 every time out if he was playing well and putting well.

It doesn't mean to me that Seminole or Cypress are over-rated exactly, over-rated for what---a challenging course for a pro tour tournament? The architecture is what it is and hasn't changed---it only means that things have gotten out of control with that caliber of player on courses like those two.

[JESII]

TEP and Patrick,

Could you guys analyze the ninth hole at Seminole for me in the context of a guy like Michael Whitaker's friend? Please note that some players today are taking their driver out over the trees to the left and onto the shag range and coming in with mid-irons from there.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

"Could you guys analyze the ninth hole at Seminole for me in the context of a guy like Michael Whitaker's friend? Please note that some players today are taking their driver out over the trees to the left and onto the shag range and coming in with mid-irons from there."

Oh come on, Sully. If players like that really are doing something like that off the tee on #9, frankly I don't know what the hell to say other than Michael Whitaker's friend is absolutely right.

There is no way in holy hell that hole (which I've always felt is not only the worst looking but also the most ineffective hole on the course) was even remotely designed to possibly contemplate or imagine a tee shot strategy like that.

If that type of player really is hitting a tee shot like that on #9 they would be absolutely massacreing the rest of the par 5s with the possible exception of #15 where there really is nowhere to go if they want to air out a driver that's that long. But even on #15 they might lay a 3 wood up in front of the second pond and just have a mid-iron in from there.

It's not that often I can related what these tour players are dong today on a golf course I really know like the back of my hand but if this kind of thing is happening like you describe, things have gotten so far out of control equipment-wise it's just sickening.

This is not the fault of Seminole or Cypress or their architecture.

[JESII]

Don't you think that green complex would do a pretty good job protecting that hole from approaches out of the shag range?

[Ryan Farrow]

Michael I would love to have another reason to watch the tour when Tiger is not playing, what do we have to do for a name?

[Mike_Clayton]

Michael

I played with a US Tour player yesterday in Melbourne (he is home for a week or so because he was not in Bay Hill or Doral) who is well versed in the history of the game and studies architecture both old and new.Growing up on the sandbelt he has a good eye for good work.
He played Cypress Point for the first time when he was up there for what ever they now call the Crosby.
He thought it was 'unbelievable' - 'one of the best 2 or 3 courses I have ever played.'
He well understands good architecture has nothing to do with how he plays the course.


We played at Peninsula South - once considered a long course in Melbourne - where we have recently rebuilt almost the entire course.
You can think you are building a 'long'par four but the reality is they are all drives and short irons unless the wind is against.

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael Whitaker,

What "old", "short" courses in the U.S. does he consider better than Seminole and CPC ?

I'll inquire.

Top 7 Personal Classics

1. Pinehurst #2
2. Congressional Blue
3. Medinah
4. Riviera CC
5. Pebble Beach
6. Wannamoisett
7. Newport CC

[Michael Whitaker]

Top 5 Modern (a really quick throw together)

1. Quail Hollow
2. Harbour Town
3. Spyglass Hill
4. Honors Course
5. TPC Sawgrass
 

[Tim Gavrich]

I wonder what he would think of NGLA. It's also interesting to note that he deems architectural worthiness as a function of a golf course being a difficult test. As to your next conversation, tell him not to give up his day job.

I asked him about NGLA. He thinks it is outstanding. He just feels Seminole suffers from a bit of the "Emperor's Clothes" syndrome. "You go there thinking it has to be great because everyone says it is great. But, afterwards, you think there must be something wrong with you because you just don't see the greatness." "It is an amazing club, with a fabulous old clubhouse, and great members. But, when you judge the course by itself it just doesn't stand up. Palmetto in SC is a better course."

I'm positively tickled to have already played a "better course" than Seminole in my relatively short golfing career .  But seriously, this perspective is extremely interesting.  Mr. Whitaker, your friend's opinions seem similar to those that label Pebble Beach as being overrated because of the scenery (as has been suggested here already); does he believe Pebble is overrated?  Or does its length serve it better than Cypress and Seminole in his eyes?

Mr. Clayton--

Is your playing partner's surname a homophone with that of an American PGA Tour player, perchance (I certainly understand if you'd rather not say)?  But if it is, I think that he is the type of person the Tour should listen to when choosing classic, exciting venues for tournaments, having won at as classic a venue as there is in competitive golf.

I'm still convinced that courses shorter than 7000-7200 yards can still work for high-level competition (happens every year at TPC River Highlands, Brown Deer Park, Westchester), and I hope that the Tour realizes that the Corey Pavin and Jim Furyk types deserve as much of a shot as the Tiger Woods/Phil Mickelson/Ernie Els/"et al" types.

[Ken Moum]

Michael

I played with a US Tour player yesterday in Melbourne (he is home for a week or so because he was not in Bay Hill or Doral) who is well versed in the history of the game and studies architecture both old and new.Growing up on the sandbelt he has a good eye for good work.
He played Cypress Point for the first time when he was up there for what ever they now call the Crosby.
He thought it was 'unbelievable' - 'one of the best 2 or 3 courses I have ever played.'
He well understands good architecture has nothing to do with how he plays the course.


We played at Peninsula South - once considered a long course in Melbourne - where we have recently rebuilt almost the entire course.
You can think you are building a 'long'par four but the reality is they are all drives and short irons unless the wind is against.

If he weren't at Doral, I'd have guessed that's everyone's favorite interview on Tour these days. The one who said, "Golf was better before. There was more art. It doesn't create a really rounded golfer."

That quote alone has made me an unabashed Geoff Ogilvy fan, Now I want to know who you playe with.

Ken

[John Kirk]

To add fuel to the fire, I have a wealthy friend (about a 8-10 handicapper) who likes great golf courses but doesn't obsess over them.  He got the invite to play Cypress recently.  His report to me, after the prerequisite boasting, was along the lines of "Well, it's pretty ordinary until the ocean holes, which are fabulous.  The Quarry (at La Quinta, his new home club) is better."

Despite the fact he has fairly limited exposure to great courses, I was shocked, but amused by his assessment.   The home course bias seems to be in effect here.

Harbour Town looks too narrow for my liking, but an accurate pro player might appreciate the need for shaped shots inbetween the trees.

[Andy Troeger]

Seems like all this proves is that people with an interest in architecture that have played a representative sampling of great golf courses can disagree on which ones they prefer.

I mean, who would have thought that??  

[TEPaul]

"Don't you think that green complex would do a pretty good job protecting that hole from approaches out of the shag range?"

Sully:

I do not. I don't think the 9th hole green or green complex is any more challenging or interesting than the rest of the hole. And I don't think it makes much difference where you come at if from. Basically, in my opinion, Seminole's 9th hole is not necessarily a poor one compared to most golf holes extant but it does not even come close to measuring up to the rest of the holes on that course.

I'll remind you that no one ever told me this that I can recall---this is all my opinion that goes back about 40 years. I love Seminole but the 9th is either eminently forgettable or regrettable----take you pick.  

[Mark Arata]

I am just dying to know what is ordinary about holes 2 through 9 at Cypress..............I suppose there isnt anything that special about #1 other than the fact THAT YOUR AT CYPRESS POINT!

I really think you could put a majority of tour pros on a airport runway and as long as they break par, they will call it a quality test of golf.........


 

[Mike_Clayton]

No it wasn't Ogilvy who is at Doral but one of his best friends,Steve Allan.

Its interesting that the Australian players most interested in design all come from Melbourne and grew up on the sandbelt.
Steve is a member at Woodlands so he understands short but difficult courses.

[Mike Benham]

As someone who was good at this game once said "They (the pros) play a game that we are not familiar with" ...

If I could hit my drives 300 yards consistantly, curve the ball on demand, pitch and chip to kick in range, and make 80% of my 10 footers, most every course in the world would seem easy.

The pro's don't see any of the hazards on the course, tunnel vision is an accurate statement.

I do believe that there is a way to have them better grasp the architecture ... take away their yardage books and pin sheets, their caddies and make them carry their own bag ... perhaps they will get a better feeling for a course ...

On second thought, why do we care what they think ...

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Disregarding 4,5,6,17,18 I could see a player miss the brilliance of Seminole even after 4-5 rounds.  The greens have some scary movement, but if it is somwhat calm and you are in a social situation, it is easy to miss things.  Also, a long player might miss how angles play out if in a social round.  Last time I played on a Sun. afternoon behind a couple of groups who were not unlike the Haversham's from Caddyshack--there was plenty of time to take in the greatness of the layout.  Overall, Seminole is known for some fairly fast pace of play.  I had always thought all the holes were like 4,6, and 18, so it was a real surprise to discover that nearly 2/3 of the property was dead flat.  My first impression was how brilliant the routing incorporated the dunes with all the flat land.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

What a douche this guy is. He is additional proof that a quality golfer does not mean much knowledge of architecture. Ok douche is a bit strong. South Park was on with that episode the other night. lol

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

If it's the short par-4's your friend doesn't like, it's not holes 5 & 6 (those are short par-5's), but instead the 8th and 9th, which some people think are among the best holes on the planet.

I can understand a Tour pro not liking the 8th at Cypress Point.  In theory, they are long enough to drive the green there, but the hole is blind from the tee and there's no way they could hold the green anyway, so the only real option for them is probably a 5-iron tee shot and a wedge.  It's a much better hole for the members, and it is a crucial hole in the routing in order to get to #9, but it is probably overrated in itself because of the setting.

The ninth is just one of the best holes in the world.  It's very short -- your friend could probably get home with a 3-wood -- but it's a frightening risk to attempt it because there are places around the green from which he might make six.  Unlike the eighth, it's all in front of you, it's just about how much nerve you have.  You can always play it with an iron and a wedge, and still the Tour players won't make 3 with any regularity.

[Rich Goodale]

Vis a vis Cypress, 8 is great and 9 is anything but fine.  The former demands both strategic thinking and execution.  The latter is just a crap shoot, with the high rollers (e.g. me, Shivas, etc.) trying the 1000-1 chance of driving the green, and the wimps (e.g. Nicklaus, Bernhardt, etc.) laying up with a 6 iron.  9 gets far too many brownie points for the old pictures of the old dune that frames it, but is completely out of play.......

Cypress is very cool, but not great.  1, 17 and 18 are extremely flawed, and the interior stuff ranges from inspired to merely transpired.

[James Bennett]

Cypress Point - I would happily play holes two through eleven which avoid the major ocean views.  In fact, if you were allowed two holes with ocean views (12 and 13, and perhaps 9the tee) then I would have a perfect 12 hole golf course.  I would happily play it again and again.

I think Michael Whitaker's friend would enjoy a game at Cypress with a 90% distance ball.  And playing with genuine mates for a small bet (a beer or similar).

Thanks for voicing his opinion, he is entitled to it.  Good luck on tour.

James B

[Eric Morrison]

Have him play CPC with persimmon and a 1970 titelist balata and see what he thinks.

[JESII]

Sully:

I do not. I don't think the 9th hole green or green complex is any more challenging or interesting than the rest of the hole. And I don't think it makes much difference where you come at if from. Basically, in my opinion, Seminole's 9th hole is not necessarily a poor one compared to most golf holes extant but it does not even come close to measuring up to the rest of the holes on that course.

I'll remind you that no one ever told me this that I can recall---this is all my opinion that goes back about 40 years. I love Seminole but the 9th is either eminently forgettable or regrettable----take you pick.  

That's astonishing to me.

My experience there is a few rounds played, 50 or so rounds caddied, and a half dozen more late afternoon (after caddying) skip around plays. So, obviously not to your extent, but also not just a one-off round.

I'm trying to figure out which direction to come at this from...How do you like #14? How about #7?

I think #9 is a good hole, even if it's a bit constricting with the distances the ball goes today. It seems to me that each shot gives each player a bit of risk to take to potentially gain an edge for their next. And the penalty for taking that risk varies from merely being in a somewhat worse position to...finding that water hazard on the right if a long hitter really wants the best angle into the green for their second.

Just a start, but how owuld you respond to those couple points and questions?

[TEPaul]

To be honest I'm not sure why Seminole has been asking the tour pros to come there for this get together in the spring. It's been going on for a few years and they seem to get a pretty impressive array of top notch players. I hope watching them play that course is not going to give Seminole any crazy ideas. When a story like Hank Kuehne driving the 16th green starts floating around like it did last year I don't know that it's healthy for Seminole. Seminole would have to really scratch around to do any lengthening and I sure hope these kinds of stories don't inspire the club to try----it doesn't need that.

On the other hand, there're an inordinate number of USGA Executive members who seem to be around Seminole these days. Maybe these kinds of stories might send them an important message. I don't think Ben Hogan (who belonged to Seminole) thought the golf course was overrated.  

[Jerry Kluger]

Seminole vs. Pine Tree - I've played Pine Tree and I realized why it has been referred to as the best flat course in the US. I have not played Seminole - is it really better than Pine Tree or does it have such a status that no one dare make the comparison?  I understand Pine Tree has done some significant work recently, espcially the bunkers, what's been done to Seminole?  Clearly, courses evolve and with the weather that Seminole is subjected to, there is a great likelihood of changes - has the course changed much and if so, is it better because of it?