Seminole & Cypress Point: Overrated?

[Mike_Clayton]

Eric,
I agree that its just a one-liner and does not really add to the discussion.


Presumably the quirky bounces and that not too much is predictable or 'fair' were at the heart of his lack of affection for the course.

Kind of the opposite of Birkdale - which pros are always going to love because its the least quirky of the Open courses.

[Jerry Kluger]

I hate to take this to its most basic point but allow me to suggest that this entire thread is a rehash of the "resistance to scoring" criteria which was, and may still be, used by Golf Digest in its course ratings.  Some feel it is valid and significant while others do not.  Perhaps it is the prosecutor in me coming out - I need to break down a very complicated case to some very opinionated people.

[Matthew Hunt]

Therefore I ask what courses outside severe tournament conditions are not par 65 or 66 to these guys?

RCD, it is not tricking up at all for the Walker Cup.

[TEPaul]

Mike Clayton:

Interesting quote from that famous player about St Georges.

Some of the significant members of Royal Port Rush told me a few years ago that Gary Player got to the tee of Calamity and looked down on the Valley course below and proclaimed that it was nothing that a fleet of D-8s couldn't fix. Needless to say Gary isn't very popular at RPR.

[TEPaul]

Actually, this has been a most interesting thread because although it isn't a regular occurence to get tour pro caliber comments on some classic courses there have been some recently and some classic courses seem to get rave revues from them.

So this probably is a very valid thread question.

For instance, I don't believe any tour pro caliber players have said Shinnecock is "overrated".  

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, how do you think they would rate NGLA though?  Wouldn't surprise me to see more CPC or Seminole type reactions, as from Michael's friend.  

Michael -- do you know how your friend likes NGLA?  ANGC?  

[TEPaul]

Jim:

I think a player like that would probably have somewhat the same reaction to NGLA but not to the extent of Seminole or CPC.

I also feel very strongly that a player like that would have a much less negative reaction to NGLA if the club simply gave that player a card whereby NGLA would be a par 70 rather than the par 73 it was last year.

BTW, NGLA has changed the par of the course as of this year to a 72 from 73. Hole #5 is now a par 4.

[Eric_Terhorst]

He is very bright and quite fun to be around... although he has never visited this site, I think he would enjoy the banter and fit right in...

He said, to my amazement, that the MOST overrated course he had ever played was Cypress Point. "It is six of the greatest holes you will ever play, six average holes, and six of the worst holes you will find on a supposedly 'world class' course. 17 and 18 are two of the worst holes I have ever played on a good course."

Michael, your comments about your friend suggest he'd be a good one to know and play golf with.  But his remarks about CPC and the other comment about the 16th hole at Cypress strike me as self-aggrandizing.  It seems to me you need an ego the size of Montana to disparage these classic courses.  
They've stood the test of time, and--unlike one of his faves Medinah#3 for example, haven't needed much "updating."  

I suppose it's marginally worthwhile to try and critique them, but simply labeling them as overrated doesn't add much to the discourse and, it's clear from this thread, not many minds are going to be changed.

 Better that the courses should simply be studied, and the best elements of them emulated in your friend's first "signature" design!

[TEPaul]

Michael Whitaker and AndyT:

I didn't say I assumed Michael's tour pro friend had only played Seminole once, I only mentioned that that is a very common reaction and from a bunch of people when they first play the course.

Seminole has been holding something in the last few years where an impressive smattering of well known tour pros have come to participate. Obviously they're all curious about Seminole. Perhaps Michael's friend has been part of that since it began.

Michael, I really appreciate this kind of input from your tour pro friend and I'd most definitely encourage you to encourage him to register and participate on this website.

Personally, I think it would be fanatastic to get some PGA tour pros participating on here. God knows they all probably have laptops and enough down time to get on here.

[PThomas]

. God knows they all probably have laptops and enough down time to get on here.

I doubt it Tom...I'm sure they are constantly checking where they are in the Fed Ex Cup point race

[archie_struthers]

 


As to scenery, visual embellishments being a non-factor.

Would that make Shooters in Ft. Lauderdale , LOL,  just an average place to get a drink?

[Andy Troeger]

TEPaul,
Didn't mean to critique your statements so much as just counter the prevailing sentiment here that "well the guy just played it once and obviously didn't get it."


More generally, I agree that its great to have an alternative point of view, and I applaud posters on this thread who have tried to gain an understanding of why this guy thinks the way he does. Criticizing his view point from a second hand account doesn't do anybody any good in terms of understanding the rationale.

This type of thread to me makes it appear to be not worth criticizing the status quo courses here sometimes because some will label you as an idiot who does not know anything about architecture instead of using it as a learning opportunity to understanding others' viewpoints. There are many statements on this thread of posters immediately trying to explain how such a silly thought could have come into this fellow's head.

I've never set foot on either one of these courses, but its important to me if I ever do to understand not just why most think they are great, but why detractors may think they are flawed.

[Eric Franzen]

God knows they all probably have laptops and enough down time to get on here.

I hear you.

I will mail a couple of the Swedish players tonight with a link to the thread about Merion's 10th and ask them to get on here.
You can thank me later.

[TEPaul]

"I will mail a couple of the Swedish players tonight with a link to the thread about Merion's 10th and ask them to get on here.
You can thank me later."

No Eric. You can tell those Swedish Tour pros THEY can thank you later.  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Didn't mean to critique your statements so much as just counter the prevailing sentiment here that "well the guy just played it once and obviously didn't get it."


Andy:

That's precisely what I'm trying to do too.

I love Seminole but one cannot just rationalize away the fact that so many players, particularly good ones, have wondered what the big deal is about Seminole after playing it the first time.

I love Seminole, always have, but I'm not about to tell all those players who have had that first impression that they just don't get it.

On the other hand, like TOC, I have seen how Seminole tends to grow on those players who pan it at first---maybe not all but a lot of them, so I just think this is an interesting subject and it's why I like to hear Michael Whitaker's tour pro friend's specific take on it.

[TEPaul]

Andy:

Regarding Seminole, let me post a few thoughts in a day or so on it that go back a long, long way and some of the ramifications of those thoughts to perhaps this subject.

But I'll tell you what they will basically revolve around.

I've know that course for years, decades---and me and most others considered it to be a very good course back then, probably great, but it certainly did play pretty tame all the time (for good players) compared to the way it is now or can be.

And then starting around 1990 I played in the first five or so Colemans and it just blew my mind.

The course was so much different than what I'd always known and it wasn't exactly over the top----just super challenging and intense. It was really cool, in my opinion.

I guess that is where I started thinking about the IMM basic idea but it didn't get really formulated in my  mind until maybe ten years later when essentially the same thing happened to me at NGLA.

I was on the way home from Long Island after playing the National Singles tournament and I was at going by Exit 7A on the New Jersey turnpike and all of a sudden---BOOM---it all came together and became crystal clear to me in an instance---and the IMM jigsaw puzzle concept was born.

But I guess if I think back on it all now, it all sort of started around 1990 in those first few Colemans. Basically I just couldn't believe a golf course could be that much different from what I'd always known just because of some really well thought through maintenance pracitices strung together in combination.

[Joel_Stewart]

Actually, this has been a most interesting thread because although it isn't a regular occurence to get tour pro caliber comments on some classic courses there have been some recently and some classic courses seem to get rave revues from them.

So this probably is a very valid thread question.

For instance, I don't believe any tour pro caliber players have said Shinnecock is "overrated".  

Personally I don't give a lot of creedence to an unnamed pro player saying Seminole and CPC are overrated.  We have a former state amateur champion at my club who has also made it to the quarters of the US Amateur and he is completely naive to classic golf course architecture.  Furthermore you have supers, architects and USGA folk that have no clue or respect for classic courses so I'm sure you would find it easy to find a number of pros who wouldn't like either of these courses.  I would bet that John Daly as an example couldn't identify the intricacies of Seminole.

[George Pazin]

On the other hand, like TOC, I have seen how Seminole tends to grow on those players who pan it at first---maybe not all but a lot of them, so I just think this is an interesting subject and it's why I like to hear Michael Whitaker's tour pro friend's specific take on it.

Tom, I have a theory on this (though I'm obviously guessing with these particular courses, as I haven't had the pleasure).

Many great "classic" courses are more subtle in their defenses than most modern courses. As such, it may not be obvious which side of the fairway to favor, when to attack a certain hole location, where not to leave an approach shot, etc.

If you don't play there frequently enough, and especially under the right conditions, you might get away with something and not even realize it. Or you might get penalized and think it was your shot, rather than your (lack of) thinking.

Conversely, if you are fortunate enough to play said courses frequently, you start to feel more pressure on your drives, approaches and putts, knowing what is at stake, and you start to think more during your round, and, consequently, think more highly of the course as a result.

I think subtle classics - and likely also subtle moderns - will always suffer in the eyes of the non-frequent players.

[TEPaul]

Joel:

You may be one of a few perfect candidates for this thread's subject. As I recall you've only been to play Seminole one time, right, and fairly recently like in the last year or so?

Did you have the feeling the course didn't measure up to its reputation or hype the first time you saw it or played it? And if so, why?

Come on, be honest---matter of fact, be brutally honest.

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael W

I'm not sure anyone's asked this yet; maybe it's in bad taste (architecturally speaking):

What did he shoot on Seminole and Cypress Point?

I'm just wondering; maybe he interfaced with the architecture (in one way or another) more than most of us have been assuming. Maybe his views aren't based on how hard/easy he found the course.....?

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

For those of us who have not played Seminole, could you point out the features that work when the wind is up but are not that significant when it is calm?

Are there some features that are unique to Seminole which make it special and cannot be found at other courses?  

Jerry,

The location is fairly unique, sitting right on the Atlantic Ocean.  This usually generates good wind.

Part of the genius of the design is the use of the twin parallel ridges and the impact of the wind on all holes.

One of the things I've noticed is that the greens don't play as large as their square footage.  And, that most feed off into bunkers, swales or adjacent areas.  The wind is a catalyst with respect to the feeding aspects of the greens and surrounds.

I good example might be the 17th hole. a par three running north to south along the Atlantic.  The green is long and fairly narrow.  Without wind, the green probably plays close to its square footage, but, it's still a difficult target.  The Bunkers surrounding the green are fairly deep, hence the green, while it plays downhill from the tee, is elevated from its surrounds. With some of the prevailing winds out of the S, SE or E the green effectively shrinks to 1/3 its size, and hole locations become important factors in how to play the hole, especially with respect to planning your margins, your misses.

The greens can be slightly crowned, most are also sloped, thus marginal shots and good shots can slide into the surrounding bunkers and swales, leaving the golfer with a difficult recovery.

Shots with spin that don't quite carry to a plateau can find themselves rolling back into the bunkers or back down into the fairway, where the golfer still faces a dicey recovery.

Putting on those crowned and sloped greens is also a challenge, especially when the wind is up.

As the wind velocity increases, the challenge increases exponentially.

With a wind from the S, # 17 is difficult.
But, other holes, will benefit from that wind.
Holes like # 4, a difficult hole, will play easier.

If the wind reverses itself, # 17 might play easier, but, # 4 will be a bear.

What happens is that new challenges are presented with almost every change in wind direction, and, those challenges can be magnified as the velocity of the wind increases.

Without wind, I won't say that the course is defenseless, but, it's fairly benign, and quite enjoyable to play.
That was true 40 years ago and it's true today, although, being land locked, there isn't much that Seminole can do to offset the ridiculous increases in distance.

Ben Hogan, a decent golfer in his time thought that the 6th hole was one of the great holes in golf.  It's a good hole without the wind.  But, with winds from varying directions and at varying velocities, the hole takes on a multitude of new personalities.

It's fun to play in winds from any one of 360 degrees and from zero, to one, two and three club winds.

That quality exists on many, if not most of the holes.

With each perceptible change in wind direction and velocity comes a change in the character of the features and the hole.   The process of interfacing with the architecture changes dramatically, and therein lies part of the inherent genius and lure of the golf course, its diverse presentation.

Given the opportunity to play 100 rounds of golf a year.
Give or take a few changes, my breakdown would be along the lines of:

Medinah # 3             1
Pinehurst # 2            8
Congressional Blue     1
Seminole                 45
Cypress Point           45

It would be hard to imagine someone choosing
 
Medinah # 3              32
Pinehurst # 2             32
Congressional Blue      32
Seminole                     2
Cypress Point               2

But, that's what makes horse races.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The issue isn't about Seminole's reputation or hype, it's about Seminole's rating/ranking.

The ratings/rankings follow a precise categorized format and the evaluative process addresses each of those specific categories, arriving at a numeric indicator, the results of which are based on the cummulative tally of the component analyses.

This isn't a subjective issue of someone randomly hyping Seminole, or Seminole's reputation, it's about Seminole's placement on the rating/ranking scale based on an evaluative process that's pretty detailed in its structure and precise in its calculation.

Let Coorshaw go for a week, he needs a break.

[Padraig Dooley]

Most of the the tour players that I know tend to be myopic in their views on golf courses. A lot of the pros tend to equate length and difficulty with greatness. Anything that is judged to be 'unfair' is a no-no as well. I have quite a few conversations about 'fairness' with my friends.

Maybe I'm being myopic but I can't see how Cypress Point can be overrated. I only played it once but the round is still very fresh in my memory.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel:

You may be one of a few perfect candidates for this thread's subject. As I recall you've only been to play Seminole one time, right, and fairly recently like in the last year or so?

Did you have the feeling the course didn't measure up to its reputation or hype the first time you saw it or played it? And if so, why?

Come on, be honest---matter of fact, be brutally honest.

I thought it was fantastic, one of the best courses I have played for shot making and options.  On many of the holes you can bump a 5 iron or fly an 9 iron.  One of the few courses that yardage doesn't matter, a tremendous feel golf course.  This may explain the pro's dislike because like machines, if they don't have the exact yardage and they have to try something they are not comfortable with (god forbid a bump and run from 175 yards) then its no good.

Of course Seminole is known as possibly being the best routed golf course in the world.  You play down wind, up wind, right to left and left to right all within 4 holes.  No two holes are alike, there are a couple of water holes, short holes and long holes.  It was one of those courses when I walked off the 18th I didn't want it to end.

After I left Seminole the following day I met Pete Dye who says he is the only living person who knew Donald Ross and maybe the longest living member at Seminole.  He was disgusted by the rebuilding of Seminole's greens and bunkers and is very disappointed in the way Seminole now plays. Ouch.

[TEPaul]

Joel:

Pete is the longest living member of Seminole? I wonder what that means but I would doubt that. Pete's not THAT old and there have to be plenty of members who have been there longer than he has. Even I can remember when he joined which was probably in the late 60s or early 70s.

I coincidentally spoke to him just the other day (I called to congratulate Alice on winning a better ball tourney at Seminole) and he told me sort of how those greens got what he called "ruined". It was a pretty well known black contractor from Georgia that he said did it but I can't remember when but I think it was a long time ago. He told me his name but I forgot it. He also sent me Ross's green drawings.