Pasatiempo v. Meadow Club

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Pasa is the stronger course with a significantly higher difficulty factor. However I would dream of a life at the Meadow Club. Much like its cousin down the coast in Santa Barbara, life is dreamy there with a wonderful routing, very good holes and green complexes on a course you can play and be challenged by for life. Both are in settings which take your breath away.

[Tom Huckaby]

JB:

Now I am definitely on the Pasa is tough bandwagon.  Man that course can cause high numbers.  But I believe Meadow is no pushover... I think it's closer than one might expect.  The numbers rather bear this out.

Pasa - Blue        70        72.5     136      6436
Meadow - Blue     71        72.1     133      6606

Both places are pretty darn cool... great places to live.  I'm just not sure Pasa merits mention in the "dream" clubs due to semi-private status.  I'm a selfish bastard and if it's my dream club oh I'd invite lots of guests for sure, but I wouldn't want to otherwise share it with bastards like me.  Remember too the dream includes unlimited funds, so cost-saving is moot.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Huck, you know calling one tough does not mean the other is not. I do understand the case for Pasa. Our dinner there was out of this world. However, The Meadow Club is such a special place. that undeveloped valley makes for a lost in time experience.

[Tom Huckaby]

JB:

I guess I just took some exception with "I think Pasa is the stronger course with a significantly higher difficulty factor."  I figure that to be closer than one would otherwise think.

But I am with you on Meadow being a VERY special place.

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Huck it is closer than I am alluding too. I just am so relaxed and happy at The Meadow Club it really does not matter what the score is.  When one is at Pasa you better have your golf mind in gear or big numbers come a calling. lol I am in San Antonio getting ready to really become a Memphis Tiger fan and whoever else gets a chance to beat Texas A$M.

[Tom Huckaby]

JB:  got it - that makes great sense - Pasa is the scene of many competitive tournaments, and also would seem to require more mental toughness to keep a score together.  One would tend to grind there far more than one would at Meadow.  You're very correct - Meadow does seem a lot more like a place for relaxation and fun than grinding golf.

I have no axe to grind against the Aggies, but you go boy!  Should be fun without a doubt.  BTW my son is a full on Mike the Tiger fan - we bought a Tiger head for him to wear as a hat for a school project - procured it from the LSU bookstore of course.  I shall have to send you a picture.  He remains a fine California LSU Tiger boy.  

[Bill_McBride]

Choosing between Meadow Club and Pasatiempo is like trying to choose between two of your kids.

While Pasatiempo has my favorite back nine holes in the world of golf, the housing so close to the course offsets that factor enough to equalize with Meadow Club, which has no outstanding hole (maybe #7) and no weak one either.  Meadow is a walk in the park of consistent quality.

Loved the 3rd green!

[Mike Benham]

Side items:

MacKenzies Home                                 Pasa
Lack of Homes                                     Meadow  
Tree encroachment                              Tie
Mackenzies First North American Design   Meadow
3 green                                              Meadow
16 green                                             Pasa  
10 tee shot                                         Pasa
Sean Tully vs. Bob Beck                         Tie
Clubhouse                                           Meadow
Hollins House                                       Pasa
Using own sod on restoration                  Meadow
Wildlife/Atmosphere/View                       Meadow
The undertaking of building it in '27         Meadow

Range and Practice facilities                      Meadow
Salt Water Taffy v. Tamales Bay Oysters    Meadow

[Matt_Cohn]

Tom,

I've played neither course which gives me the same perspective as most of the golf world, I suppose.

Almost four years ago, before I even lived in San Francisco, I went out of my way on a day trip to Santa Cruz to drive to Pasatiempo and look around.

Meanwhile, I lived in San Francisco for over a year before I even heard of the Meadow Club. There's just nothing about it that lends itself to being known.

[johnk]

It's a big tent and all, and everyone has their preferences, but you people are HIGH if you think Meadow Club is as interesting, challenging or fun as Pasa.

I've played Meadow once (thanks to a certain bespectacled poster on this thread), and Pasa countless times.

I don't think it has to do with setting, remoteness, access or taffy.  

Pasa has most of its greens set at 45 deg angles to your approach.  The greens that aren't set at an angle are very narrow.  It calls for very strategic driving and precise approach play.

Pasa has great bunkering.  It has a kind of unity to it - with views across holes and bunkers tied together across the Vista.

Pasa has some great downhill tee shots, some great cross-baranca shots, and a few seriously challenging uphill plays.

I don't recall any thrilling tee shots at Meadow Club.  I don't recall any stunning par 3s.  And I certainly do recall a lack of consistency across the holes.  I also vaguely recall a few really annoying holes at Meadow (short par 4 to uphill green).  

I can't do a hole by hole, because I can't distinctly remember most of the routing at Meadow from hole 4-12... which is something I usually could remember after one play...

All of that is just my humble opinion, of course.  And Pasa is probably my favorite course within several hundred miles of my house...

[Glenn Spencer]

JB:  got it - that makes great sense - Pasa is the scene of many competitive tournaments, and also would seem to require more mental toughness to keep a score together.  One would tend to grind there far more than one would at Meadow.  You're very correct - Meadow does seem a lot more like a place for relaxation and fun than grinding golf.

I have no axe to grind against the Aggies, but you go boy!  Should be fun without a doubt.  BTW my son is a full on Mike the Tiger fan - we bought a Tiger head for him to wear as a hat for a school project - procured it from the LSU bookstore of course.  I shall have to send you a picture.  He remains a fine California LSU Tiger boy.  

TH,

The scene of many competitive tournaments might not be a bad thing to add to location, location, location. I don't know how it could hurt. Your original post wanted to talk about how they were thought of instead of rankings, so it really does apply.

Tiger,

Why would you be cheering against Acie Law? The officiating in that 1st half was shameful!! I still can't believe they lost to that Memphis team. They choked.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn - I never said nor meant to say that that didn't apply.  I was agreeing with Tiger as to how Pasa is played.  And yes, that does go toward the notoriety thing.  But I believe I have that figured out in spades.  

Matt:  your thoughts are the normal thoughts about the two courses - that is, everyone knows about Pasa and wants to play it - many very astute golfers have never even heard of Meadow Club.  I just believe the courses are closer in overall quality than this opinion would seem to justify... I know why Pasa is more well-known... Meadow would just seem to be a hidden gem that deserves more fame and acclaim - to me anyway.


John K:  your love for Pasa has been stated before, and believe me, I share it.  I just also believe you're underselling Meadow.  Oh, I'm not high (though I'd like to be) and I think Meadow is a lot closer to Pasa in overall quality than you do.  And again this takes NOTHING away from Pasa.  I just found a LOT to like there when we played it Wednesday.  Funny though, the hole I believe I liked most - short par 4 with raised green sure describes #16 - you seem to like least.  Man that green and the site around it is fascinating to me... but to each his own, I guess.  

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

I guess I would disagree with Tom Doak in Pasa being underrated.  It hovers around #100 on Golf Digest lists and I can think of at least 10 courses that are above it (some well above it) that can't hold Pasatiempos jock.  Mayacama, The Preserve, Trump International, Sahalee, Eugene, Estancia, Hudson National, Atlantic, The Prince Course, Rich Harvest Farms, Shoal Creek are far less interesting than Pasatiempo.  Playing there 2 weeks ago I was surprised how every shot was demanding yet interesting and fun.

As for Meadow Club, I played there last year and would say its rated about right.  Its not going to be considered a championship golf course, never going to be on TV but its a great members course.  I'm sure every member is proud to play there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Joel - interesting take - only Tom said both courses are OVERrated.  Care to take a stab at that?

 

[Tom_Doak]

Huck:

I think Joel just used the wrong word by mistake ... his reasoning is that it should be ahead of the other courses he listed, so he thinks it's underrated, and he does disagree with me.

I'm sure I will get in hot water at Pasatiempo if I say much more, but my feeling is that (as at many other courses) the course has been rated for what it WAS or SHOULD BE, and not for how it really IS (or has been the last few years).  They will expect their ratings to jump higher once all the restoration work is completed, but I suspect they'll be disappointed, because that pedigree was already factored into the ratings.

However I still think it's several lengths better than The Meadow Club ... most of people's stated reasons for rating Meadow on the same level are its setting and isolation and "whole", not the quality of the golf holes.

[Tom Huckaby]

TD:

Gotcha re Joel.  Triple-negatives tend to confuse me though, so bear with me.  

Re Pasa, oh they do have ratings expectations, that's for sure.  But I think you're right - I don't see a ratings jump in their future either.  World or US Top 100 is a very tough class to be in, and upward movement is exceedingly difficult once a course "settles in."  I think Pasa is fantastic, but rated just about right as it is - bottom part of those lists.  And that's pretty damn good.

I was just very impressed by Meadow Club as it is now - obviously.    It does seem to me to be a lot closer in overall quality to Pasa than I had remembered... and that might be due to the whole, but the holes ain't bad either.  Meadow is one hell of a great course in its own right.

I'll never argue with anyone who says Pasa is the superior course.  I just do think Meadow is at least in the same class.  Night and day, not even close type of assessments are what would puzzle me.  And again it's no knock on Pasa - it's more praise for Meadow.

TH

[Mike Benham]

In some respects, I see Meadow as what Pasa could be without the narrow corridors and homes.

Meadow has a much more open feeling, width if you want to call it that.  The fairways are on average wider, and tree encroachment is less at Meadow.  The green complexes are huge, not only the green surface but also the closely mown areas around them.  This allows the golfer to play ground based shots when missing the green.

I probably should look into the history of Pasa but I wonder why it is so narrow and cramped, specifically on 6, 7, and 8.  When the course was routed I am pretty sure the houses weren't built yet so why not grab a little more property to allow for one of Mac's greatest design features, width.

I could and would be a member at Meadow, and would never want to be a member at Pasatiempo.

[Tom Huckaby]

Great stuff Michael.

And full concurrence here... that is until the end.

Oh, I believe I'd PREFER to be a member at Meadow, that is if it also entailed living near there, and if Pasa remained semi-private.

But "never" is a very strong term.

If someone gave you a free membership at Pasa, you'd turn it down?  Or if you were so wealthy the cost of membership there could be borne without batting an eye, would you not want it as a secondary/tertiary membership?

I believe I'd enjoy either of those things.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

I'd much rather be a member at Montecito.

If you mean Valley Club, then you and me both bruthah.  Check out my comments in the "James Bennett sightings" thread.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Mike B:

I think it's hard to posit that the homes at Pasatiempo were crowded in more than Dr. MacKenzie visualized, since one of the homes most in play was his own.

[Eric Franzen]

I think it's hard to posit that the homes at Pasatiempo were crowded in more than Dr. MacKenzie visualized, since one of the homes most in play was his own.

Yes, that's the price you have to pay if you "...always wanted to live where one could practice shots in one's pajamas before breakfast".

[Mike_DeVries]

An interesting debate and one that is hard to separate myself from, as Meadow is so personal to me.

I will refrain from a hole-by-hole, but I think there are a number of similarities and differences to the two, mainly that there are too many trees at both, which detract from the original intent and visual aesthetics of both of them.  Pasa probably has more dramatic holes on it, due to the dramatic terrain but Meadow's vistas (especially where trees don't impinge on them) are all-world -- it is pretty amazing that when the sun goes down, the only light you see is on the clubhouse porch!    I am particularly fond of the green contours at both, although I think Pasa is regularly kept too fast for its slopes (I haven't played there in 6-8 years, but continue to hear how fast they keep them, which negates the fun of them, specifically the 16th).  Holes at Meadow that I really like include: 1, 4, 5, 6 (particularly if the trees get removed), 7, 9, 10G, 15, 16, 17, and 18.  At Pasa, 2 approach, 3 (tough!), 5, 10, 11, 12 greensite, 14 fairway gully, 15, 16 for history, and 18 with some vegetation removed.  Pasa gets very cramped by housing throughout the course and Meadow is a narrow golf course in places with the trees, although originally its intent was to be the Old Course in America, so all those angles were available to use without the trees.  I think Meadow may be slightly more original: the only green to be altered was #3 by the members quite a while ago and I rebuilt it due to agronomic issues and pitch, and the trees -- all the contours in and around the greens were still in place.  Not sure what all is non original at Pasa, besides modifications to #11 green and tee placements at #2, 9, and 10?  Tom, is that correct?  

I think they are both wonderful golf courses and I appreciate all the nice compliments.

Best,
Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Playing Meadow Club again and seeing your work, particularly on the gorgeous day we had... finishing late in the day... well you can imagine how this all inspired me.

And fully understood this must be tough to separate yourself from, as it also must be for Tom Doak re Pasa.  So I really appreciate the input from both of you.

In the end it's going to come down to what one's cup of tea is in the world of golf, as most course discussions do.  I just do continue to believe that both are indeed great golf courses, and Meadow is a bit unsung.

BTW, I have fallen in golf hole love with 16 Meadow Club.  I'm really not sure I can properly articulate why... I just stood in that fairway in absolute awe at how such a short shot could be made to such a HUGE green, and still be so damn difficult.  Good God is the universe of possible hole locations huge there... and the options off the tee are numerous also... then one gets to the green and yowza... it's up there with #3 in weird contours... I do love that golf hole.  It bums me out a bit that John Krystynak seems to have poo-poohed it.

[Bill_McBride]

Meadow Club and Valley Club share a real feeling of peaceful isolation in those valleys.  During our round at Meadow in late November last year, we saw a bunch of deer and turkey, very peaceful and pleasant.....

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike:

BTW, I have fallen in golf hole love with 16 Meadow Club.  . . . I do love that golf hole.  It bums me out a bit that John Krystynak seems to have poo-poohed it.

Tom,

Hey, I don't know John K, but his statement "I also vaguely recall a few really annoying holes at Meadow (short par 4 to uphill green)."  makes me wonder what annoyed him so much?  It is a big golf world out there and he loves Pasa (favorite course within a couple hundred miles, which includes Cypress, Pebble, Spyglass, SFGC, Olympic, etc., so he really likes it!) -- that's ok.

Glad you enjoyed the Meadow so much and look forward to how you view it after more playings and retrospection.

Mike