Unknown AOTD #2

[Craig Disher]

I thought the last one was NLE and was surprised. If this 9-holer isn't NLE, I'll REALLY be surprised. Crossing the road twice may not have been a big deal when the course was built but judging from the number of cars in the picture, it must have become a major irritant. South is to the left. Note the ridge around the first green.



This was in the vicinity of eastern LI. The aerial also dates from 1938.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Note the humungous 'castle' of a building/home in the upper right corner, to help with people more familiar with the area than me.

Craig,

If you throw up Lido in one of these, do you know much that would be worth?

[GeoffreyC]

Craig

I'd guess that "America's Linksland- A century of Long Island Golf" by Dr. Bill Quirin would have most or all of the answers to your unknown aerials.  

I had it here yesterday when I scanned and posted the old 12th hole at Garden City GC but its at home now.  I'll try to check tonight.  I'd recommend the book to anyone who wants an extensive review of golf on Long Island duitn the last century.

I'd also suspect that Bill would be very interested in your images if he has not seen them already.  I wonder if he lurks.

[SPDB1]

These are a lot of fun. I think i went to a wedding where this course used to sit. if i'm correct, it was a private course. Not a private club, a private course.

[AndyI]

Craig:

These are great.  That looks like a railroad on the left side of the picture.

Where did you get these aerials?

[SPDB]

I'm guessing that this is either one of two courses:

Otto Kahn's private course, now Cold Spring CC, and the mansion Oheka - Otto HErman KAhn

or the original Deepdale course.

If it's the latter, I am very interested in knowing more about this NLE course.

[Craig Disher]

My filing may have gone a big haywire on this one. Don't spend anymore time on it until I figure out what roll I was photographing. I looked at Cold Spring on mapquest and this can't be it. Sorry. :-/

I can still say with confidence that this is a picture of a golf course.

[SPDB1]

Craig, an aerial view of today's Cold Spring would not be dispositive evidence that the aerial here was Otto Kahn's course. The Cold Spring of today is a Fazio (i think) creation or redesign.
unless there is some other natural feature that is distinguishing, i wouldn't rule it out. that castle up in the corner bears a resemblance to Oheka

[SPDB1]

i meant "was not Otto Kahn's course"

[GeoffreyC]

The mansion in the upper right corner of the photo looks a lot like Otto Kahn's home as shown on page 207 of Bill Quirin's book.  Also, The Long Island Railroad built the Cold Spring Harbor station near the mansion specifically to accomodate Kahn's guests.  Seth Raynor built the original course so perhaps George Bahto would recognize this aerial.  

The evidence against this being Kahn's course is that the photo of the mansion on page 207 shows the golf course or a part of it almost abutting the home.  Perhaps by 1938, parts of the course were altered or abandoned. Also, I don't immediately see the Raynor/MacDonald replica's

As for the original Deepdale course, it was along the shores of Lake Success.  A photo on page 203 documents the 18th hole of the original Deepdale along the lake.  I see no lake in this aerial.  I doubt it is Deepdale.

[Patrick Hitt]

Deepdale was not near the RR, it was in the way of the LI Expressway. A bone or two of the course can still be seen (mabye) at the Lake Success Golf Course which is public only for town residents. Only a few landforms and bunker positions around one or two greens looked anything like CB's work.

[SPDB1]

geoff, i don't have any photo documentation, but was rather taking a stab based on the mansion Scott pointed out. Therefore, I'll take your word for it. I think the LIE wasn't built until the 50s, so clubs began to be forced off their properties in the 40s.


How about the old Meadow Brook Club? The course was forced to move in the 50s, so presumably it would still be functioning in 1938. It would be helpful to know if the LIE moves through this property today, as it would narrow down the number of potential courses.

[SPDB1`]

Can we get to the bottom of this?
Craig, can you tell what town this course is in, by running it through a current mapquest page as you did in the Montauk Downs thread?

By eastern L.I. do you mean the South Fork?

Some NLE Long Island courses:

Meadow Brook (old)
H.P. Whitney Estate

what are the others?

[Craig Disher]

Time for me to come clean. I said in an earlier post that my record keeping may have been lax on this one. It was. This course isn't on LI at all. It was located in the Baltimore area. I'll identify it unless some of you would like to try on your own.

Again, sorry for the error.

On the Montauk course #2, using Mapquest I found the small pond and buildings at the top of the aerial. As expected, the course is now covered with housing. At least its former location is now known.

[WilliamWang]

i got it...

the building in the upper right is a seminary.  looking at aerials of OHEKA, i kept wondering why the shape/dimensions of the mansion house didn't match up.

[WilliamWang]

this NLE course has been replaced by a high school and a condo/apartment development.

[SPDB]

Does this club still have a course, only now it is a tillie design outside the city?

[WilliamWang]

SPDB - yup relocated  

[SPDB]

Who designed the original "Downtown" one?

[WilliamWang]

i don't know who designed the original layout.

some bits from a Baltimore Sun article from 1999.

"The course, a par-72 that played to 4,875 yards -- 2,000 yards shorter than most Open venues these days -- had been criticized as unsuitable for a major. One hole -- the par-4 17th -- was the American version of Road Hole at St. Andrews. "

"You had to hit your tee shot across Falls Road," said Emich.

The 18th hole was a 235-yard par-4 known as "High Ball." The last portion was called "Cardiac Hill" preceded by "weeds, bad grass and ditches."

"Cardiac Hill" is mentioned in the Tillie "The Course Beautiful".  he remarks about how members of BCC thanked him for not routing such a brutal finishing hole at five farms.

[Scott_Burroughs]

My suspicions were right.  I figured the original course was somewhere near the current JFX corridor north of downtown, based on the topography, and that's it.

When did it move?  My grandparents lived in the city back then.

[Craig Disher]

Missing Links has a drawing of the original Roland Park course designed by Willie Dunn in 1898. It was lengthened in 1912 and replaced by Tillinghast's Five Farms in 1926. The aerial here is from 1938.

The holes from the original design that played across the road are gone but it appears that many of the original greensites are still in the same place.