16th at North Berwick (West)

[Dan Kelly]

Darren --

Thanks for hastening to add that, while we haven't lived up to your expectations on this thread, we usually do.  

I assume that the "good questions" Clemnet asked, in your view, were these (and, forgive me, but I don't think you answered them, either!): "What would you guys say if Strantz or someone else tried to create something like the 16th at North Berwick here in the USA? Would you consider it for one of your 'favorite medium length holes in the world,' or would you rant about the unfairness of it? And is a hole great if even the members dislike it and think it is a joke?"

The first two are, really, hypothetical questions -- and can be answered only hypothetically. I'll try, anyway (and speaking, of course, for myself alone), to give answers that are on point:

(1) I'd say, either [a] It's a very strange hole, and it works beautifully; or It's a very strange hole, and too bad it doesn't work.

(2) If my verdict were (1)[a], I might consider it one of my favorite medium-length holes in the world. If my verdict were (1), I would not rant about its unfairness. I NEVER rant about the unfairness of a hole -- though I've often ranted about the STUPIDITY of a hole.

(3) Is a hole great if even the members dislike it and think it is a joke? Answer: maybe so, maybe not. Some memberships are keen judges; others aren't.

Muddling along,

Dan

[Mike_Cirba]

The FACT is, an attempt to create something "over the top" like #16 at North Berwick HAS been done by a modern architect in recent years, and HAS been met with plaudits on this website and elsewhere.

Modern architect (and sometime contributor here) Kelly Blake Moran built a very similar green on his 6th hole at Hawk Pointe GC in norther NJ.  It was discussed positively by myself and others who played the course.

Also, the hole was featured in the "Great Architecture" section of Jersey Golfer magazine, and quite deservedly so!

[Michael Whitaker]

BCrosby - I understand your comment that True Blue is all "funked" up (I've heard it before), but I don't feel that way. I really enjoy playing the course. My brother-in-law, on the other hand, would not step foot on the place if you paid him. He hates it. But, he plays it from the incorrect tees for his ability and he is a terrible chipper and putter. He would fair no better on NB and would probably hate it, too. No, let me change that... he would probably be enthrawled with NB because it is in Scotland and he has been told that he should like it. If you picked it up and moved it to the USA he would turn his nose up at it.

Mike_Cirba - Thank you for the mentioning Hawk Point. I hope I get a chance to play it some day. I'm pleased to learn that it received positive press. Unfortunately, my experience on this site and elsewhere is that unorthodox doesn't sell... except overseas.

Dan Kelly - I think we might be dealing in symantics here. What you are calling "stupid" I might be calling "unfair." I have read numerous threads on this site where unorthodox design choices have been discussed about a course. You call a feature you don't like "stupid" - I might call the same thing "unplayable," whereas someone else might use the term "goofy" or "quirky." And, as far as the membership not being keen judges of their course I would argue that, in the case of NB, they have had sufficient time to determine what works for them and what doesn't.

Thanks to all for your comments. You've given me a lot to consider... which may spin off another thread soon. I'm particularly interested in the discussion of "fair vs. unfair" and whether, as Dan Kelly says, that is a silly concept.

In any case, I guess it just comes down to what my little old Grandmother used to say, "That's why they make chocolate and vanilla."

[Enda]

Ireland is not part of the UK. Not only that, but the golf here is very different.

[J_McKenzie]

BCrosby:

I would like to mention the Love Course at Barefoot Resort in North Myrtle Beach as an example where "unorthodoxy" did make it to the U.S.  The design strategy for holes #4 and #6 on the Love Course came directly from a trip to Scotland.  Members of our design team played several courses on the east coast of Scotland, including North Berwick and Dunbar.  Hole #4 was inspired by two holes from Dunbar that had a  stone wall in play right next to the green and Hole #6  features a wall you play over to reach the green similar to #13 at North Berwick.  

The difference in the "unorthodoxy" as we did it at Barefoot is that it was manufactured, where as the stone walls in play in Scotland are 'natural' because they were already there.  Our design team debated long and hard about how this would be received, as we did not want to be percieved as building something putt-putt.  (I think this is the same debate many designers have and the reason more things  "unorthodoxy"
don't get built.)  In the end, however, we were convinced we could make it look natural, we believed it added to the strategy of the holes, and most importantly, we thought people would have fun playing it.  Just like we did in Scotland.  

[Doug Wright]

JMcKenzie,

Very interesting. Congrats on not being afraid to take a bit of a risk. How have these holes been received to date?

All The Best,  

[J_McKenzie]

Doug_Wright:

The holes have been well received.  Most people tell us how lucky we were to have brick ruins to work around.  The Love Course is one of four courses all built at the same time and on the same piece of property.  At last report, I heard tee reservations on the Love Course were the highest at the resort.  

John

[BCrosby]

J_McKenzie -

I've not played the Love course at Barefoot, though I saw pictures of the "ruins" and wondered what they were. My assumption at the time was that they were authentic plantation ruins.

A tip of the hat for your courage and imagination in building them.

Since the course is located in coastal Carolina where there are, in fact, lots of plantation ruins, your ruins are sufficiently likely to exist in nature to satisfy the "naturalism conceit", at least for a course in your area. So I wouldn't worrry too much that they didn't predate the course. (Waterfalls in Palm Desert are another matter. But I'm getting OT.)

I will try to visit the Love course next chance I get.

Keep us posted as to any interesting reactions, positive or negative. I hope you guys started a trend.

Bob

[Michael Whitaker]

J_McKenzie -

Thank you for reminding me about the brick wall and ruins you incorporated into your course... I had almost completely forgotten about those holes!! Gosh, am I getting that old??

I played The Love Course and "LOVED" it! The brick wall and ruins are a great touch and were extremely well received by everyone in our group (12 good 'ol boys from SC).

One of the players in our group semi-skulled his second shot on #4, it bounced off the wall back onto the green about 3 feet from the hole for a unbelievable birdie! It was the talk of our visit.

Thanks for the great work on the course. I recommend it highly to all who ask. It is a terrific layout and a LOT of fun.

Have you incorporated any other features from your Scotland trips into other courses? Any planned?

[Brian_Ewen]

J_Mckenzie
I would also like to applaud you bravery in designing something like this.
Any pics on the Net  , for us Scots "over here" that love North Berwick , and would like to see this work ?

Best Regards
Brian Ewen

[J_McKenzie]

Clemnet,

We have not incorporated any features that obvious on any of the courses we have done since Barefoot.  The property and scope of project need to dictate when something like that will work and we want to be careful not to be type-cast as "ruins" designers.  We certainly love the golf courses and the way the game is played in Scotland.  Davis has said 'links' golf is his favorite way to play.  Suffice it to say, pictures and design elements from the courses members of our design have played in the U.K. are on file and ready to be used when it feels appropriate.

Since you are from South Carolina, I will let you know that we are working on a new course located near Ninety-Six that plays in and around an outside design feature.  The course is called The Patriot and should open late Summer or early Fall 2003.  

Thanks for the kind words and the recommendations at Barefoot.


Brian,

There aren't any real good pictures on the web that show how the ruins fit within the golf course.  The best I can find is at www.myrtlebeachclassics.com/golf/love.html.  Hopefully, we will have a website in the near future with better pics.

Regards,

John

[Thomas_Brown]

When I stayed at the Marine in 1990, stories of Tom Watson circulated that he was in the Marine bar watching the qualifier and saying he thought he could score a 3 on 16.

He went out after the qualifier and indeed did get a three.
IMHO - As fast as that course plays 360 yards is a short par four and a wonderful hole.