News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« on: March 20, 2007, 02:36:36 AM »
Always interesting to see the numbers when the young guns come to Pasatiempo for the Western Intercollegiate.

The leader is Brett Lederer of Long Beach State who shot 67-66=133, 7 under ... walking 36 holes ...

Table below is the scoring averages for each hole through the first two rounds (full stats available at Western Stats)

Hole Par  Yards  Rd. 1   Rd. 2  Total
  1     4      457    4.36    4.26    4.31
  2     4      437    4.14    4.14    4.14
  3     3      217    3.54    3.73    3.63
  4     4      378    4.17    4.08    4.13
  5     3      194    3.28    3.19    3.24
  6     5      522    4.94    5.25    5.09
  7     4      346    3.97    4.16    4.06
  8     3      177    3.32    3.27    3.29
  9     5      492    4.86    4.68    4.77
 10    4      440    4.56    4.23    4.39
 11    4      391    4.46    4.75    4.61
 12    4      373    4.20    4.04    4.12
 13    5      501    4.66    4.79    4.73
 14    4      426    4.17    4.27    4.22
 15    3      141    2.95    3.10    3.03
 16    4      396    4.39    4.46    4.42
 17    4      363    4.20    4.26    4.23
 18    3      181    3.40    3.40    3.40
Total 70 6432   73.56 74.05   73.81
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 02:36:58 AM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2007, 07:10:20 AM »
The scoring average for the 17th hole is pretty interesting to me.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2007, 07:59:56 AM »
even they have trouble with 11....what a great hole!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Joe Fairey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 08:45:58 AM »
I agree...number 11 is one of my favorite holes there,  difficult but fair... I think the par 3 third is equally as challenging...lots of very good holes at Pasatiempo

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 09:05:21 AM »
The scoring average for the 17th hole is pretty interesting to me.

They might have played a little "hole hockey" like Shivas!  :o ;D

That is the most steeply sloped, flat looking green anywhere.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 09:45:15 AM »
As I told Mr. Benham when we were discussing this yesterday, only two things would mean high scores for these young guns at Pasa:

1. Bad weather
2. Evil hole locations

They surely didn't get #1, it was beautiful yesterday, although perhaps blustery late in the day.

It would seem to me the powers that be set evil pins on 11 and 17.

Like I told Mike, let me set all the hole locations and I could make it such that no one breaks par.  Pasa is that kinda course - at the green speeds they keep today.

Bryce Mueller

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 10:21:08 AM »
i played there last year, and our team(Duke) won last year. Unfortunately we could not fit it into our schedule this year due to dates etc etc etc. I have never had more fun playing a college tournament, mostly because of the strategic nature of pasatiempo. In last year's case, we had just come from playing the new tournament course at Redstone in Houston, which had been set up harder (same exact pins as last 3 rds in the tour event that was occuring a month later, but 200 yds longer than tour played it, and much more wind) than the pga tour event which occured a few weeks later. The tournament in houston felt like a computer game, because it was simply plugging in numbers, aiming at certain spots, and firing... not much strategy was involved because it was too long and too hard, you just had to hit to the center of every fairway and green...

Pasatiempo was the exact opposite. Shots like the 2nd shot on 6 (first par 5), the tee shot on 7, the tee shot on 16, and all the par threes all were fantastic alternatives to the traditional bombing idea that most of us are used to. I wish college tournaments were held at courses such as Pasatiempo more often because I believe it would greatly help the course management development of college players, as opposed to playing the same 7300 yd courses we seem to play so much now...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 10:46:25 AM »
Bryce:

Very cool and very topical input - thanks!

Pasa is a great course for learning course management, that's for sure.

But truly how much does it matter for a player like you?

I ask because it seems to me that absent awful pins, you strong college players could overpower it - or at least your choices are a whole heck of a lot different than those for a guy like me (struggling 3-5 handicap who never practices and can't hit the ball all that far).

Quick example:  #2.  I need to try and hug the right side to try and get the turbo boost off the mounds that reside there... because given the nature of that green - strong right to left slope, very firm, no real chance to bounce a shot in given mounds short of the green - I need to get as far down as possible off the tee, so I can hit an approach shot with some loft.  Absent that I have zero hope to hit and hold that green.  It also helps a bit to stay right, so I don't have to carry the bunker short left.

Don't you just bomb a driver down the middle and have a wedge to that green?  Is there any course management at all required on that hole for you?

I get how Pasa would likely require you to use course management skills more than Redstone, and I get how it must have been a very fun change of pace for you.

I just wonder how much course management the strong college players really need to do, even at a course like Pasa.  I'm hoping there are holes were you do need to consider angle and the like.  I also get how the wise shot even for you bombers is to lay back on 7 (stay between the trees), 2nd on 6 (same reason), and 16 (avoid going in creek).  But are there any holes where you have to consider angle into the green or take other chances, like I do on 2?

Just curious.

TH
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 12:36:16 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 02:01:12 PM »
I played it the weekend before this tournament Bryce played inlast year and it was very, very wet due to all the rain the area  received.  I wonder how wet it was this year?..

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 02:05:42 PM »
I played it the weekend before this tournament Bryce played inlast year and it was very, very wet due to all the rain the area  received.  I wonder how wet it was this year?..

Sean - if it was wet this year, the place would have to go down as the world's worst drainage or worst case of overwatering.  Prior to today (ironically enough) it hadn't rained in Santa Cruz in several weeks, and in fact the last week or so was a heat wave.

TH

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 02:38:24 PM »
TH,

I played there in Jan and it was very dry.  Constant rain here this winter, so I was hoping you had it too... ;)

Jay Flemma

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 05:56:12 PM »
even they have trouble with 11....what a great hole!

Yeah, that's one of my faves too.  How bout those scores on 10 and 16 as well?

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2007, 06:21:30 PM »
I am always amazed the hyperbole thrown the way of Pasatiempo and its degree of difficulty.

Two or three years ago I played with a left handed professor who just anihilated the front nine. Claiming he hadn't played in weeks and whining for additional strokes, he must have been three under after five holes.

Apart being an accomplished player he also finds time to stamp out disease and restore classic courses to their former glory. Think Yale.

Bob

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2007, 06:25:02 PM »
Bob:

But how did said Professor complete the round?  ;)

I'd say there's zero doubt that Pasatiempo can be had.  All it takes is soft conditions and/or easy pins, and even a punter like me can shoot 71 (as I have once there).  Truly good players can tear it up, as the college boys are proving.

BUT... catch it on a firm day.... with some evil hole locations... and I dare say it can play very tough.  And one way or the other, it does play a lot longer and more difficult than its yardage would indicate.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2007, 06:37:51 PM »
Its true Huck, with its low elevation and thick NorCal air, yardages always play the longest in the bay area than almost anywhere else.  Moving to Utah has done wonders for my once shortish drives.   ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2007, 06:39:44 PM »
Kalen - I have found that effect on courses nearer the ocean... Olympic Club definitely has this "dead air" effect.... I use one club more for all shots there.

I never found that at Pasa though - it's on high land pretty far from the sea (relatively).

Of course anything here is gonna be dead compared to Utah, methinks.

TH

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2007, 06:44:03 PM »
Mike,
PLEASE change the title of this thread. If I sing 'Sean Penn Blues' in my head just once more, it'll implode.

"the western minnesota intercollegiate circle
telephoned they said"

...one of Mr Cole's finest.

Actually, I'm only kiddin'. Don't change a thing! I'll die happy.

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2007, 07:25:30 PM »
I played Pasa last week in the member guest.  The course was in great shape.  I was a little surprised by some of the changes but I haven't played there in over a year.  There are new back tees on all the par 5's and many of the greens have reclaimed a lot of old putting surfaces.  The 8th has quite of bit new green on the back right as an example. The 11th green which has been altered is still very severe if you're above the hole.

I'm told that they plan to rebuild the 17th and 18th greens starting later this year.  The 17th will be pushed back to its original spot and the 18th will be restored with the large bunkers in the front.


Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2007, 09:11:47 PM »
Its interesting that the par 3's, 3,5,8 and 18 had huge scores over par.  Of course #3 was the highest but #8 is almost impossible if the pin is back and you are in the front.  I faced this last week when I was on the front of the green and pin was all the way back so I chipped it with an 8 iron to get up the hill.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2007, 11:46:49 PM »
The final round was held today and the weather was indifferent at best.  Rain was in the forecast but it may have hit late in the round.

Only five golfers bettered par led by John Streibich of Xavier University who tied two tournament records to capture individual honors. Streibich shot a seven-under par 63 and finished with an 11-par 199 total. His final round featured a hole-in-one on the par 3, 194-yard 5th hole and tied a record first set by 1964 U.S. Open champion and former CBS-TV golf commentator Ken Venturi, who played for San Jose State in the 1950’s.

Hole Par  Yds    Rd. 1   Rd. 2   Rd. 3   Total
  1     4      457    4.36    4.26    4.24      4.29
  2     4      437    4.14    4.14    4.68      4.32
  3     3      217    3.54    3.73    3.61      3.62
  4     4      378    4.17    4.08    3.85      4.04
  5     3      194    3.28    3.19    3.22      3.23
  6     5      522    4.94    5.25    5.36      5.18
  7     4      346    3.97    4.16    4.12      4.08
  8     3      177    3.32    3.27    3.48      3.35
  9     5      492    4.86    4.68    5.05      4.86
 10    4      440    4.56    4.23    4.45      4.41
 11    4      391    4.46    4.75    4.68      4.63
 12    4      373    4.20    4.04    4.26      4.16
 13    5      501    4.66    4.79    4.98      4.81
 14    4      426    4.17    4.27    4.30      4.25
 15    3      141    2.95    3.10    3.07      3.04
 16    4      396    4.39    4.46    4.65      4.50
 17    4      363    4.20    4.26    4.40      4.29
 18    3      181    3.40    3.40    3.23      3.34
Total 70   6432   73.56   74.05    75.64      74.41
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2007, 12:37:14 AM »
Awesome, a 63 is just off the charts. I would like to see this guys card to see how anyone can shoot 63.

I noticed 8 and 9 played tougher today than previous days.  I'll assume the wind was blowing in their face and they probably used the new back tee on #9.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2007, 12:50:59 PM »
The scoring average for the 17th hole is pretty interesting to me.

It doesn't surprise me a bit if the pin was front right.  I'll bet that in a field of 150, there would be at least 40 3-whacks or worse.

One guy eagled the hole so I am pretty sure he didn't even need to putt ... 75 bogeys, 12 doubles and 2 others out of 285 plays ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2007, 12:53:56 PM »
Hmmmm....

Is it out of possibility that a LONG hitter could drive 17 green?
363 uphill... they could have had the tee up...

I wonder.

 ;)

Re 8 and 9 playing tougher second day, I'd bet a lot they just each had a tougher hole location - many ways to make 8 brutal, 9 just put it to the far left.

TH

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2007, 01:00:17 PM »
Nice showing by the Bears!

How much farther back will #17 green be moved?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Rob_Babcock

Re:Pasatiempo - Western Intercollegiate
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2007, 07:55:01 PM »
How much farther back will #17 green be moved?

The 17th green won't be moved back; there is a large, fairly narrow, portion of original green surface at the back of the green which would be restored. This area extends back along the barranca so approach shots long/right will be protected by a hazard. The desire is to also remove a number of trees between the 17th green and the 18th green opening up the view.

If you go to the Slideshows page on the Pasatiempo web site and view the Historical photos, you can see how far back the 17th green went originally (there is a tree in the back of the old green now).

Rob