[Andy Levett]

Well, the Bethpage voting shook my faith in this exercise a little, though the quality of the discussion was an admirable counterbalance.
All the junk (1-3) votes are gone, and will be ignored in the future. If you really want to award of the world’s best courses a 4, fine, but you have to post here and justify your view. (This rule change doesn’t affect any of the existing results, as the only vote of below 5 – a 1 for Pebble – was also disregarded).
Bethpage Black scored an average of 8.26 on the Doak scale. How will the sometime number 1 in the UK compare?
To vote on Muirfield click here

[Andrew Mitchell]

Andy

You might want to keep this poll open for a week or so as there are a dozen or so from this site playing Muirfield on Tuesday 27th.

[Andy Levett]

Andrew
That's why I picked Muirfield but for some reason I thought it was this week. Doh.
But looking out of the window maybe a week's delay isn't such a bad idea.

[Mark Pearce]

I see someone has already given it a 4.  I know some people think Muirfield is over rated but I cannot see how anyone can honestly claim it's a 4 on the Doak scale.  At least not without coming on here to justify their rating.  These are interesting threads and it's a shame if people are trying to skew the ratings they produce.

I gave it a 10.  It may not be incredibly beautiful but it is a completely fair and serious test of your game, without a weak hole and with a good collection of great ones.

[cary lichtenstein]

On the wife/woman friendly scale I give it a big fat 0.

If I knew that ahead of time, we never would have played it, I would just have come back on a guy trip.

 I guess the sign as we walked in that "dogs and women are not welcome" was a clear indication of how we were going to be treated.

I guess I should have compalined to my travel guy for not warning me in advance. Greywalls stay was very nice.

[Ken Moum]

On the wife/woman friendly scale I give it a big fat 0.

If I knew that ahead of time, we never would have played it, I would just have come back on a guy trip.

 I guess the sign as we walked in that "dogs and women are not welcome" was a clear indication of how we were going to be treated.

I guess I should have compalined to my travel guy for not warning me in advance. Greywalls stay was very nice.

I feel much the same, I play a lot of golf with my wife, and she's easily my favorite person to have as a partner or opponent.

Last July our party,which included two women, didn't play Muirfield, but we did drive past on the way to North Berwick.

Regardless, I'm usually not a huge fan of golf courses where almost every reviewer mentions is how "fair" it is.

K

[Lloyd_Cole]

I guess the sign as we walked in that "dogs and women are not welcome" was a clear indication of how we were going to be treated.

Cary
There really is such a sign?
Does anyone have a photo?
I am collecting examples of unsavoury behaviour for a possible column. This sounds like it could be a banner item.

[PThomas]

I guess the sign as we walked in that "dogs and women are not welcome" was a clear indication of how we were going to be treated.

Cary
There really is such a sign?
Does anyone have a photo?
I am collecting examples of unsavoury behaviour for a possible column. This sounds like it could be a banner item.

the sign is still up these days?  wow..............

[Mark Pearce]

I thought we were rating the golf course, not the club?  My wife refuses to play there for reasons I understand and support but I still recognise a great golf course.  The sign has, I believe, long ago gone.  They may be stuck in a different century (and not necessarily the late 20th, or even the 20th) but they recognise a legal issue and value their green fees.

[KBanks]

Andy, what was the final tally on Royal Portrush? I must have missed it.

Ken

[John Kavanaugh]

Andy,

What happens when we rate Lakota Canyon and Cary gives the course a 10...I say let the 1's stand and quit hen picking the ratings you like.

[Mark Chaplin]

Lloyd,

Whilst I in no way condone all male clubs in any shape or form, in UK law the HCEG is a private club and entitled to have an admission policy. To their credit they allow male visitors to pay a greenfee and play golf, if you wish to dine you have to wear a jacket and tie. Their other option is to only allow member's guests and have a security guard in a box at the gate and refuse to let anyone else onto the property....ring any bells?  Personally I think the UK way which allows visitors to play 99.9% of golf clubs a superb system.

I'm not having a pop but would prefer such rules & signs to be described as quirky or eccentric.

[jeffwarne]

It sounds to me like the only acceptable rating for the courses chosen so far are 8,9,or 10.
If so, why not just give those 3 choices?
If you rate it a 4 you're required to come on and explain yourself. (I will agree those were some crazy 1's although if I had to sleep in my car and then play a six hour round on a narrow, repetitive course I might feel is overrated , I might use such a number immediately after walking off the course)

Are we going to throw out all the 9's and 10's on the courses we don't like?
I know plenty of people who rate The Bridge a 10.
Would they be required to explain as those who rate favorites
as low as a 4 are?

It's great exercise, but let's not prejudge.
And many people count ambiance and atmosphere in rating a course highly, so why can't Cary detract for the same reason.

Side note, I rated Muirfield a 9 ,even though I was a bit predisposed to not like it-It exceeded my expectations.

[Doug Wright]

I gave Muirfield a 9. I can't say "if I missed one hole I'd be missing something," which  is required for a 10. However, Muirfield is one of top 10 courses I've played in my 44 years of playing golf. The routing, greensites and bunkering are compelling to me. This course falls into one that I'd clearly like to be able to play every day for the rest of my life.

[Mark Pearce]

I think that this series of threads has exposed a flaw in the Doak scale.  Is there really a course anywhere in the world where if you missed one hole you'd be missing something?  I could play Muirfield and miss the 14th and not feel I'd really missed out.  Not because it isn't a good hole but it isn't a great one.  I'm sure that at any course we could identify at least one hole that is good but not great.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd,

Whilst I in no way condone all male clubs in any shape or form, in UK law the HCEG is a private club and entitled to have an admission policy. To their credit they allow male visitors to pay a greenfee and play golf, if you wish to dine you have to wear a jacket and tie. Their other option is to only allow member's guests and have a security guard in a box at the gate and refuse to let anyone else onto the property....ring any bells?  Personally I think the UK way which allows visitors to play 99.9% of golf clubs a superb system.

I'm not having a pop but would prefer such rules & signs to be described as quirky or eccentric.

Mark
This is an interesting one.
I actually have no problem with single sex clubs. I think if you form a club or association and you should be allowed to control the membership as you see fit. I also have no problem putting on a jacket and tie if that is the dress code.
I have no problem with unaccompanied women not being allowed in a clubhouse, if that is the rule the club wants. I find it excepionally rude, however, that a woman should be left in the pouring rain, rather than bending such a rule.  And I do take issue with a sign which lumps women together with dogs, if such a sign exists, or existed. There is no call for that. It sounds like something from 'Borat'.

[Gary Slatter]

I guess the sign as we walked in that "dogs and women are not welcome" was a clear indication of how we were going to be treated.

Did you get your feet sorted?
In June 1968 I saw a sign outside the Dormie House at Royal Lytham: "No Japanese".  In April 1999 I saw a sign at the start of the driveway into an Italian mountain course "No GERMANS". The friend from Lugano who was driving us said they also made Swiss people prove they were Swiss.

Cary
There really is such a sign?
Does anyone have a photo?
I am collecting examples of unsavoury behaviour for a possible column. This sounds like it could be a banner item.

[Chris Cupit]

I've weighed in before but I love to pick a fight so.....

The routing is brilliant and if I understand correctly, it was the first time that such a routing (clockwise rotating outward nine, counter clockwise inward nine with no more than three holes in the same direction) was devised.

But, I found the land/fairways very flat and boring.  I know it has been hypothesized before, but I am convinced that Muirfield is rated so highly by Americans because it is "straightforward" and "fair".  You "can see all the hazards in front of you" seemed like one of the many "compliments" bandied about by my fellow Americans after we played.

I was there late last summer for a tournament (I did not see the "No dogs or Women Allowed") sign and in fact, the membership was very gracious and opened the clubhouse all week to the ladies.    

Par threes all played the same length and again, the course seemed, well,....bland.  I did love #11 with its blind tee shot up and over the hill.  The first time you stand on the tee it doesn't look like you can come close to getting over the ridge!

Anyway, I've gone hole by hole before and I am sure no one wants to read that again.

PS  I stayed at Greywalls one night before the rest of our group arrived and I was completely underwhelmed.  After the rest of my group arrived we moved about 1 1/2 miles up the road to Fenton Tower and it made Greywalls look like a Motel 6!!  I was in one of the "newer rooms" at Greywalls which I think was a stable they remodeled  


And yes, I played like crap pretty much for five straight days so I admit that too, could cloud my objectivity.

North Berwick was ten times more fun and, to me, more interesting.

[Chris Cupit]

I'd give it an 8.  Certainly no 10.

[Sean Walsh]

All the junk (1-3) votes are gone, and will be ignored in the future. If you really want to award of the world’s best courses a 4, fine, but you have to post here and justify your view. (This rule change doesn’t affect any of the existing results, as the only vote of below 5 – a 1 for Pebble – was also disregarded).
click here

I think the first post on this topic was more than fair.  In response to some malcontents obviously trying to skew the results Andy has introduced a simple remedy.  Give the vote you would like BUT you must post on the thread to justify your rating.  Seems reasonable to me (and I'll be happy to provide a rating in a week's time   )

[Bob_Huntley]

I've weighed in before but I love to pick a fight so.....

The routing is brilliant and if I understand correctly, it was the first time that such a routing (clockwise rotating outward nine, counter clockwise inward nine with no more than three holes in the same direction) was devised.

But, I found the land/fairways very flat and boring.  I know it has been hypothesized before, but I am convinced that Muirfield is rated so highly by Americans because it is "straightforward" and "fair".  You "can see all the hazards in front of you" seemed like one of the many "compliments" bandied about by my fellow Americans after we played.

I was there late last summer for a tournament (I did not see the "No dogs or Women Allowed") sign and in fact, the membership was very gracious and opened the clubhouse all week to the ladies.    

Par threes all played the same length and again, the course seemed, well,....bland.  I did love #11 with its blind tee shot up and over the hill.  The first time you stand on the tee it doesn't look like you can come close to getting over the ridge!

Anyway, I've gone hole by hole before and I am sure no one wants to read that again.

PS  I stayed at Greywalls one night before the rest of our group arrived and I was completely underwhelmed.  After the rest of my group arrived we moved about 1 1/2 miles up the road to Fenton Tower and it made Greywalls look like a Motel 6!!  I was in one of the "newer rooms" at Greywalls which I think was a stable they remodeled  


And yes, I played like crap pretty much for five straight days so I admit that too, could cloud my objectivity.

North Berwick was ten times more fun and, to me, more interesting.

Chris,

Like you, I am not overwhelmed with the perceived charms of Muirfield. The par threes are all alike and the thought that you are on a links is lost on me. I daresay the forthright comment by golfer and clubmaker, Andrew Kirkcaldy that the course was  'nothing but an old water meadow'.... rings true to this day.


However, I love Greywalls and the dining room. I would love to own the place. Sir Edwin Lutyens the architect, designed the house and when I built my house here in Carmel Valley I had my architect follow in his style.


Bob

[Mark Pearce]

Having played there with the GCA party yesterday and having carefully considered whether my family connection leads to unfair bias I'm still convinced it's a 10.

The par 3s are all the same?  Not yesterday.  4 and 16 are similar (but both very good).  13 was playing from the front tess and was a short uphill par 3 (in any event the complaint is that they are all raised greens, with drop offs on either side.  13 isn't, if you miss right or left you are either in a bitch of a bunker or on the same level as the green or higher.  It's a lovely par 3.  7 played at around 145 yards (which it almost always does for member play and the challenge here is the green.  With a front pin position this green has a very narrow entrance so most shots on the green will leave a long downhill putt.

The par 5s are both good holes, 17 is, I think, a great one, demanding strategic decisions on the tee and with your second shot.  The par 4s are what really makes the course and they are a great selection of par 4s, demanding thought on every shot.

It's not a striking piece of land, admittedly but to say the fairways have no shape is simply wrong, 2, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12 and 17 all have significant movement in the fairway that adds to the way the hole plays.

The clincher, though, at Muirfield, is the architecture.  This is a series of brilliantly designed holes.  Even some of the less feted holes are brilliantly conceived.  2, with the fairrway feeding the ball left, apparently towards the wall.  3, with the long mounds narrowing the fairway 70 yards short of the green, which demand precision off the tee and deceive you into thinking the green is immediately behind them.  5, a straigtaway par 5 but any approach missing the green right is in serious trouble (playing foursomes with Kelly Blake Moran we surrendered having visited the greenside bunker on the left of 11, then one of the greenside bunkers intended for 15 itself!)  6 and 8 are both very strong par 4s, 9 is a very good hole.  I could go on but I think it's better to say that I don't think there's a weak hole on the course.  

The bunkering is a treat (I paid more attention to the bunkering yesterday than I ever have before having heard Tom Doak tell Philip Gawith over dinner on Monday that the bunkering was the thing to look out for).  There is a variety of style and bunkers can be strategic, penal or simply there for deception.

[Bob_Huntley]

To me, a perfect ten is Pine Valley. Does anyone here think that Muirfield is its equal?

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

It sounds to me like the only acceptable rating for the courses chosen so far are 8,9,or 10.
If so, why not just give those 3 choices?
If you rate it a 4 you're required to come on and explain yourself. (I will agree those were some crazy 1's although if I had to sleep in my car and then play a six hour round on a narrow, repetitive course I might feel is overrated , I might use such a number immediately after walking off the course)

Are we going to throw out all the 9's and 10's on the courses we don't like?
I know plenty of people who rate The Bridge a 10.
Would they be required to explain as those who rate favorites
as low as a 4 are?

It's great exercise, but let's not prejudge.
And many people count ambiance and atmosphere in rating a course highly, so why can't Cary detract for the same reason.

Side note, I rated Muirfield a 9 ,even though I was a bit predisposed to not like it-It exceeded my expectations.

Jeff,

Could you imagine Parker giving a wine a FIFTY?

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

To me, a perfect ten is Pine Valley. Does anyone here think that Muirfield is its equal?

Bob

Surely someone has to take the bait.

Bob

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