Sydney's other courses.

[Andrew Hastie]

There is no doubt that the capital of Australian golf is Melbourne with an abundance of top golf courses.
Because of this Sydney lives in the shadow of Melbourne, at least so far as golf goes.
However being born and raised in Sydney but now living overseas I have some affection for it's courses.
What I'm interested to find out, are there any other Sydneysiders on this disscussion group or any visitors who have played anything further then the required N.S.W GC and what they thought of their experiences.
After N.S.W GC the next string of courses would be,
Royal Sydney
The Australian
The Lakes
Concord
Terry Hills
St Michael's
Bonnie Doon
Castle Hills
Monash
Long Reef
Elanora
Pymble
Avondale
Killara,amongst others.

[ed_getka]

Andrew,
  I haven't been yet (will soon), but aren't you forgetting Newcastle, or is it too far away?

   I also liked your choice of razed in Sydney, is that why you moved away?  

[Andrew Hastie]

Newcastle is about 2 hours drive north of Sydney.But certainly worth the drive.

[Greg Murphy]

In August of 2005 I played St. Michael's with my two teenage sons and it was a very memorable day. Both guys were at that age where they couuld really see no risk in hitting a flop shot off a two by four, but the first memory I have is the one son pitching back and forth about three times, trying to get his ball to stop on the first green. Talk about firm and fast. An even better memory, though, was a hole (ether a long par 4 or short par 5) on the back side coming back home with the ocean on the left and puring a long drive to a narrow landing area on just one of the nicest sites for a golf hole I've ever experienced. The course has its quirks, a few really blind shots, and it's not all that long, but I sure enjoyed the place, especially as a contrast to the softer Canadian and U.S. courses back home.

[James Bennett]

Andrew

played Terrey Hills once, Avondale a handful of times (I enjoy it, despite its 'GCA' failings - lots of aerial 'weeds') and Concord several times, once since the new greens.  Others I played 30 years ago.

I'm sure the other 'Andrew' will have a comment.

Must dash - plane to catch.

James B

[Andrew Hastie]

Terry Hills is one of the few courses built in Sydney in the last 20 or 30 years.Designed by Graham Marsh.
I prefer the charm of a Avondale,course has pure couch fairways and the bunkering has recently been re-done.A bit tight in spots but a good members course.

[ed_getka]

St Michaels sounds intriguing, what are the shortcomings of the course other than what Greg pointed out?

James,
  In case you haven't taken off yet for greener pastures, we'll see you Monday.

Andrew,
   Where would you place Newcastle in your ranking above if it were in Sydney?

[Kevin Pallier]

Greg

You may be referring to the 13th at St Michaels where the ocean is on the right (you mentioned left) ? - a downhill P5 of around 450m.

Andrew H

IMO NSWGC is Sydney's premier course. I'd then bracket The Lakes / Royal Sydney / The Australian behind it as far as recommendations go - all much of a muchness.

I'd then recommend courses like of (in no particular order):
Terrey Hills
Concord
Macquarie Links
Monash
Pymble
Castle Hill
Killara

followed by the likes of:
Avondale
Camden Lakeside
Bonnie Doon
St Michael's
Pennant Hills
Riverside Oaks
Cromer
Liverpool
Manly
Ashlar

PS: I haven't played Elanora

Sydney falls well, well short of Melbourne as far as quality of courses but we get the better year round weather  

Ed

Newcastle is NSW's second best course (unfortunately it's 2hrs north of the city). A new course nearby is Magenta Shores - a very welcomed addition. A top quality links styled layout.

[Matt_Sullivan]

I would agree mostly with Kevin's rankings. Some additional comments:

-- The back 9 of The Lakes is probably the best golf in Sydney behind NSWGC. Pity the front 9 pales in comparison. But because of  the great back 9 (and because it is easier to get a game) I would choose the Lakes over the Australian or Royal Sydney if I were a visitor looking for a game

-- After the top 4 courses, there is no course in Sydney that would be better than any course in a list of "top 25 courses in Victoria" or even "Top 10 courses in the Mornington Peninsula"

-- I would probably put Camden Lakeside (and potentially Bonnie Doon and St Michaels) ahead of Pymble or Killara. But there is not much in it. For a visitor, choosing a course from Kevin's bottom two lists depends on which one is closest, cheapest and available

-- Going down a rung further, I would say that you can get "decent" cheap public golf nearish to the City at Kogarah, Eastlakes, and the Coast (although I hear they have butchered that for housing development??). The courses have little architectural merit but each has its good holes and for A$20-30 or so during the week, they might be worth a hit during daylight saving.

-- If you are on a holiday or business trip to Sydney, I would play NSWGC and the Lakes, and do all I could to get to Newcastle. If you are going to Newcastle, then Magenta Shores, Horizons and Pacific Dunes, which are all up that way, provide much better golf than any of the courses on Kevin's bottom two lists. As a bonus, these courses are dead during the week and, except for Magenta Shores (where I think you have to stay at the hotel to get on) are even pretty quiet and open to the public on the weekends (which is not true of most courses in the Sydeny metro area).

[Anthony Butler]

There is no doubt that the capital of Australian golf is Melbourne with an abundance of top golf courses.
Because of this Sydney lives in the shadow of Melbourne, at least so far as golf goes.
However being born and raised in Sydney but now living overseas I have some affection for it's courses.
What I'm interested to find out, are there any other Sydneysiders on this disscussion group or any visitors who have played anything further then the required N.S.W GC and what they thought of their experiences.
After N.S.W GC the next string of courses would be,
Royal Sydney
The Australian
The Lakes
Concord
Terry Hills
St Michael's
Bonnie Doon
Castle Hills
Monash
Long Reef
Elanora
Pymble
Avondale
Killara,amongst others.

I would put St Michaels slightly higher and Terry Hills a little lower. Only NSW would make the top 10 in Victoria along with RMW, RME, KH, Victoria, Metropolitan, Woodlands, CW, Yarra Yarra, and maybe Huntingdale.

[Andrew Summerell]

Hi Andrew,

I’m a Sydneysider who is a member at Newcastle GC. I’m happy to drive the 2 hours on a regular basis because, at a GCA level, it is so much better than anything in Sydney, apart from NSW, which has a 10+ year waiting list for membership.

The north side courses are overrated & similar in overall style. Avondale, for the reasons you stated, is probably the best these days, but they are all much of a muchness.

The new work at Royal Sydney is quite reasonable & causes me to place it higher than The Lakes & The Australian. Ross Watson, who did the recent work at Royal Sydney, is also in the process of working at Bonnie Doon. The new stuff so far, looks good & when completed, will probably see Bonnie Doon given greater consideration by the various ranking panels.

Twin Creeks is a new course open about a years ago, designed by Greame Marsh. It’s a housing estate course with some single fairway corridors & is frightfully over bunkered. It’s worth a hit for Sydneysiders, but not really a tourist destination.

Macquarie Links is about 3-4 years old & is a housing estate as well. Again, worth a game for those who live close by.

Camden Lakeside must be about 10 years old now. It’s a Peter Thomson design with pot bunkers & links style greens, all 45 mins drive from the ocean in heavy, hard packed clay soil amongst gum trees. At least it doesn’t have any dry stone walls.

Sydney suffers through not having a large enough area of sandy soil like Melbourne’s ‘Sandbelt’. There is a strip from NSW GC, through Bonnie Doon & up to Royal Sydney, but that is about it. Everything west, south & north of that is clay.

Sydney is also infested with Kikuyu, with all but 5 or 6 courses where it is the dominant grass. Most of these courses don’t manage the Kikuyu very well & probably 75% of Sydney courses are over treed.

[Matt_Sullivan]

Andrew, is there a waiting list at Newcastle? Every time I play there I think about joining. And I guess a couple of thousand to join?

And Ross Watson must have done great work  at RS (I haven't seen it) to lift it clearly above the Lakes and Australian. I will always have a soft spot for the Lakes -- I saw my first pro golf tournamnet there in the 80s (the NSW open with the Shark, IBF etc) and 11, 14, 16 and 17 are such great fun.

I also have a soft spot for Camden Lakeside, because now I am a non-Sydney resident (and hence no membership in town), it's one of the few decent courses in Sydney you can get a reasonably quiet game on a Saturday. And despite the inconguities you mention, architecturally it ranks alongside or above most of the North Shore courses

[Andrew Summerell]

Andrew, is there a waiting list at Newcastle? Every time I play there I think about joining. And I guess a couple of thousand to join?

I'm a country member, as I live beyond the 150km radius. I'm also a member of a Sydney course, but use Newcastle as my home club.

Full membership is a little over $2000 & I'm not sure what the joining fee is. The waiting list is minimal & would only take a few months for your membership to be approved

And Ross Watson must have done great work  at RS (I haven't seen it) to lift it clearly above the Lakes and Australian. I will always have a soft spot for the Lakes -- I saw my first pro golf tournamnet there in the 80s (the NSW open with the Shark, IBF etc) and 11, 14, 16 and 17 are such great fun.

I agree with you about the back 9 at The Lakes compared to the front 9 & I'm not a big fan of The Australian (Those who know me will be having a chuckle at that). When I said Royal Sydney was ahead of the other two, I didn't mean by much & it still wouldn't make the top 10 in Melbourne, but it has greater interest than before & a little more strategy.

I also have a soft spot for Camden Lakeside, because now I am a non-Sydney resident (and hence no membership in town), it's one of the few decent courses in Sydney you can get a reasonably quiet game on a Saturday. And despite the inconguities you mention, architecturally it ranks alongside or above most of the North Shore courses

Again, there are some who will find it hard to believe I am saying this about a Peter Thomson course, but yes, Camden Lakeside is better than most of the northside courses, & is reasonable fun to play. I only live about 10 minutes for there.

[Matt_Sullivan]

I hadn't thought of a country membership for Newcastle. I am certainly outside the 150km radius. I will check it out.

Thanks

Matt

[Darren_Kilfara]

Three times I read "Killara" and thought I saw my surname. Seeing words that look like my surname is not a common experience, I can promise you!

(Actually, there's an Australian winery called Hanging Rock that produces a pinot noir called "Kilfara", with grapes grown from the Kilmore and Faraday regions in Victoria...that was a truly weird discovery, but I digress.)

Cheers,
Darren

[Anthony Butler]

Hi Andrew,

I’m a Sydneysider who is a member at Newcastle GC. I’m happy to drive the 2 hours on a regular basis because, at a GCA level, it is so much better than anything in Sydney, apart from NSW, which has a 10+ year waiting list for membership.

The north side courses are overrated & similar in overall style. Avondale, for the reasons you stated, is probably the best these days, but they are all much of a muchness.

The new work at Royal Sydney is quite reasonable & causes me to place it higher than The Lakes & The Australian. Ross Watson, who did the recent work at Royal Sydney, is also in the process of working at Bonnie Doon. The new stuff so far, looks good & when completed, will probably see Bonnie Doon given greater consideration by the various ranking panels.

Twin Creeks is a new course open about a years ago, designed by Greame Marsh. It’s a housing estate course with some single fairway corridors & is frightfully over bunkered. It’s worth a hit for Sydneysiders, but not really a tourist destination.

Macquarie Links is about 3-4 years old & is a housing estate as well. Again, worth a game for those who live close by.

Camden Lakeside must be about 10 years old now. It’s a Peter Thomson design with pot bunkers & links style greens, all 45 mins drive from the ocean in heavy, hard packed clay soil amongst gum trees. At least it doesn’t have any dry stone walls.

Sydney suffers through not having a large enough area of sandy soil like Melbourne’s ‘Sandbelt’. There is a strip from NSW GC, through Bonnie Doon & up to Royal Sydney, but that is about it. Everything west, south & north of that is clay.

Sydney is also infested with Kikuyu, with all but 5 or 6 courses where it is the dominant grass. Most of these courses don’t manage the Kikuyu very well & probably 75% of Sydney courses are over treed.

That ridge of land above the Northern Beaches where Elanora and Monash are located has as much potential as other location in Sydney aside from where NSW and St. Micheals are located... Each has a couple of good holes but can't say either is a memorable experience.

Royal Sydney is clearly the second best course in Sydney these days... particularly when you consider their reciprocal rights!

[Andrew Hastie]

I don't know much about the old Australian GC but the new Nicklaus design is nothing exceptional.Certainly a long demanding golf course with small greens and in good condition.
I wonder if anyone knows much about the old  Mackenzie design.The new course was  were Tiger recorded his highest score in professional golf until the Muirfield Open.

[Mike_Clayton]

Andrew,

The Old Australian was terrifc.The biggest difference in playability if you compere it with the new one is that the original was designed for the wind and the new one is not only much more difficult if the wind blows it requires high shots as opposed to low runners.

The routing is basically the same.
10 and 11 Old were combined to become 1.
12 and 13 were eliminated (short four which was not a good hole and short 3 which was a good one)
2,3 and 4 New were added by taking ground off the old short course.
The new course is essentially an American style course with bunkering and greens that had never been seen the this country.
And the old course barely had a tree on it.

What is really interesting is whether the same changes could be sold to the membership today.
There was a much different mentality toward golf design in the mid-seventies i.e a reverence for anything American especially if it had anything to do with Jack Nicklaus.

The Australian Open is back there this year.

[Andrew Summerell]

Mike,

My 1976 version of 'The World Atlas of Golf' has the old routing in the 'Gazetteer' at the back. I have seen a few pictures of the old Australian layout, but would be interested to see more.

Do you know if anything worthwhile was lost when the freeway went through in the mid 60's. I think Sloan Morpeth did the required work then. Do you know what holes he had to work on to set up what became the pre-Nicklaus routing ?

[Mike_Clayton]

Andrew,

I never saw that course - pre 1965 about.
The 17th was a short 3 that was lost when the freeway went through the corner of the course that is now by the 8th green.

They say the more powerful members at The Australian had the freeway re-routed so it went through the middle of The Lakes and not their course as was originally planned