Courses with the most Architecturally Important holes

[Michael Robin]

What courses have the most Architecturally Important holes and how many do they have?

I'll be a homer and start with Riviera.

1st hole Par 5 - The great tee shot from the top of the cliff at the clubhouse. A great "getaway hole" where you can start with a 4 or a 7. Palmer called it "The Best Starting Hole in Golf."

4th hole Par 3 - Thomas' take on the Redan. 238 yards of what Hogan called "The Greatest Par 3 in America."

6th hole Par 3 - The unique bunker in the middle of the green. One of the most amazing pieces of shaping around.

10th hole Par 4 - The best short Par 4 in the game. Period.

11th hole Par 5 - An outstanding example of how to create strategy on a piece of flat ground. Thomas created a risk/reward carry over the barranca that is set on a diagonal from the fairway. A good drive allows you to attempt the carry over the ditch. Miss-hit either of your first 2 shots and you're likely in the barranca, execute them both and you have a wedge 3rd and a probable good birdie try.

15th hole Par 4 - A very good long dogleg right that has a long iron second shot into a Biarritz like green set at a diagonal to the fairway. Thomas took several templates and gave them his own spin. A great, great green here.

16th hole Par 3 - George T's version of the Short hole. A do or die, late in the round, short to mid-iron to a surrounded by amazing bunkers green. My favorite hole on the course.

18th hole Par 4 - The best finishing hole in the game IMHO.

So that's 8 important holes. What other courses have as many as 8 Architecturally Important holes on them?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
You should have listed all 18 holes at Riviera....

[Michael Robin]

Tommy, I agree, but don't you think that these stand out as world class and above the rest?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Couldn't agree more! Although I do think, and after carefully researching many of Thomas' courses, all of his holes seemingly are World Class....(At least the majority of them!)

[Michael Robin]

Or how about Pebble?

I'd say 6,7,8,9,10,13,14,16,17,18.

That's 10 of 'em.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

NGLA: 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,10,11,14,15,16,17,18

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

That is certainly one factor I use to decide how high a course should place among the world's elite.

Of course I am very choosy; I wouldn't put the 1st or 11th at Riviera on the same plane as the others you listed.  (If I had to rank the holes from 1-10 on the Doak scale, they wouldn't get higher than an 8.)  Nor would I put 10, 13, 16 or 17 at Pebble Beach on that exalted level, but that still leaves it with six architecturally important holes (tied with Riviera!).  There are only a handful of courses in America with more than that ... National and Pine Valley and Cypress Point and Crystal Downs are the ones that jump to mind.

I always laugh when people here try to compare the best holes on modern courses to the best holes on the courses above.  There are very few modern courses which can place even a single hole in this company.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Doak said:

"There are very few modern courses which can place even a single hole in this company."

In your opinion, is that simply a time based thing in that they need to be around a lot longer, get more exposure, and more scrutiny.  

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

From having looked at the top 100 modern courses by GolfWeek, I can think of at least a few holes that would be in this company. A couple of those coming from PD.  I would agree they don't have the same quantity as a Pebble, Cypress, or Riviera...

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I don't believe it is a time based thing, except in the way that it is harder to come up with an original golf hole now than it used to be.  I wouldn't put the 7th at National in the "architecturally important" class because it isn't really any improvement on the hole it imitates [although I am sure some would disagree].  On the other hand, I would list the 3rd and 4th and 8th at National as architecturally significant, even though they are based on historical precedent.

I just don't think that much of modern architecture has the sort of little detailing and subtleties that turn a "very good" hole into an "architecturally significant" one.  I guess you could blame that on time, as well -- in that few architects take the time for these details.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I'd have to give this more thought but your comments make sense.  Note:  While you are online, stay away from those hazard threads!  Someone will try to convince you to change your mind about short grass being a form of a hazard  

Off to shovel snow  
Mark

[Phil_the_Author]

Here is one that would surprise most, but Bethpage YELLOW contains the sole surviving Tillinghast REEF Hole. It was the 5th hole of the original Blue Course, but after the creation of the Yellow in 1956 by using a number of the Blue's holes, it was saved and is now the 12th hole on the Yellow.

The park has been slowly working on it to restore the Reef which almost became non-existent and intend to place a sign marking the importance of the hole at the tee.

The reason I mention this hole is because there are many otherwise non-descript or even forgetable golf courses out there that have a single hole or architectural feature that is really quite important and worthy of preserving.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

I would agree with that, although some people will stretch it a bit too thin ... a 300 yard hole that's fun to play is not necessarily architecturally significant.

[wsmorrison]

Phil,

Do you have a hole drawing or photograph of the Reef Hole that you can post or send me to post?

[Jim Nugent]

Is 10 at Pebble somewhat like 9?  Never played or seen the course, basing this question on what I've seen from TV.  

[TEPaul]

Michael Robin:

Interesting thread. Riviera is a good one to pick even if some of those you mentioned are probably pretty close to just variations on pre-existing architectural themes but some seem pretty original to me.

Obviously #6 is really original and apparently too much so to ever gain much currency to be copied, but in my opinion the really significant one is #10----eg probably the all-time poster child of how to make a totally man-made brilliant golf hole on a pretty bland piece of land----eg fairway width/well placed bunkers/small green and angles, angles, angles.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

I'm emailing it now.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Phil.  I haven't received it as yet.

Tillinghast mentions a Reef Hole at Newport CC and variations on other courses on pg. 95 of The Course Beautiful.  Aren't any of them in existence?

[wsmorrison]

From Phil:

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

There is a drawing of a Reef hole in The Course Beautiful. It's a small chapter actually.

I've never been able to understand why this hole design was never more copied. For a long par 3 hole it looks to be multi-optional brilliant.

On second thought, perhaps the reason it didn't catch on is initially Tillinghast explained the concept as higher handicappers playing the hole like a short par 4 and obviously that idea was not destined to be popular as golf evolved.

I'll tell you, though, the old 12th at LuLu was a real Reef hole by Ross. Unfortunately, it's necessary direction was completely co-opted for a new parking lot but the green is still there although playing from a much different angle that basically wipes out the "Reef" concept.

[cary lichtenstein]

#9 at Yale

#7 Pebble

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Tom.  That's where I found the drawing that Phil eventually sent me and also noted where Tillinghast discussed the Reef concept at Newport CC and variances elsewhere.  I didn't see a Reef concept at Newport on the 4th, 8th,13th or 14th holes.  Could he have used the concept on an approach to a par 4 or par 5?

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne, as far as we know there were only 3 REEF's ever built that I am aware of and the one at Newport is no longer there. Off-hand I can't rememeber where the other one was... I'll have to look it up.

[Adam Sherer]

Classic US course:  the National

Modern US course: TPC Sawgrass

In the world: the OC

[Michael Robin]

Tom D. -

Isn't the 1st at Riv a perfect example of Thomas' theories on a 1st hole? A soft start that allows for the golfer to gain confidence and also allows for the groups to getaway without causing a log jam at the tee as the players in the fairway aren't having to fight with too severe of a hazard field? There is also plenty of strategy for the player as he deals with how he has executed his first tee shot of the day. Go for the green in two, lay up to a good angle for a wedge shot that will leave you with a birdie try, or lay it up short of the ditch if you don't want to challenge the barranca.

The 11th for me is hugely underrated as it has great solutions to the routing needs on a very flat, boring part of the course. It seems brilliantly set into the existing barranca and has challenge and then strategy the whole way.

I was also going to mention the 8th and the 13th. The 8th is bold in it's concept, but not in its current execution. The 13th was originally a version of a Cape, but the current trees up the left side make it only a difficult, tree lined dog leg left. There have been discussions about restoring the left side barranca right up to the fairway and removing the Eucs. We'll see.

What about some modern courses? How about Pacific Dunes? I'd say that 2,6,8,9,11,13,16,17 are significant. That's 8 of them.