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Bryan Izatt

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What are the characteristics of a good driveable 4?
« on: March 16, 2007, 03:26:08 AM »
As a follow-on to another thread, I began to wonder what made a good short driveable 4.  Here are my thoughts as a relatively low handicapper.

It should be reachable with some roll with my best drive. So from the 6700 yard tees it needs to be 300 or less yards and no more than 240 or 250 yards of carry.

There must be an avenue to roll the ball on the green.

The risk, whether it's water, sand trees, deep fescue or whatever must not be so tight to the line of play to make the possibility of success in avoiding it less than 25%.  Don't give me a 10 yard wide landing area at 250 yards.

Use a non-recoverable risk feature (water/OB) as a last resort.  Give me some opportunity to recover.

Use quirky landforms near the green so that the roll-up is an adventure with no guarantee.

Make the green site, the surrounding bunkers or rough, and the green movement as interesting and challenging as you like.

Bottom line - give me a chance to make it if I take the risk.  And don't penalize me more than 1 shot with the hazard feature.  Nothing worse than a supposed short 4 that always dictates a layup off the tee.  That's boring.

Should there be more or less or different criteria?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 11:27:43 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Willie_Dow

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2007, 05:18:07 AM »
Bryan - You would love this quirky little course in Vero.  Pete Dye has made something memberable at the Moorings.  At 4434 from the tips even you will have a time breaking 80 !  But, there are many reachable par fours with all of the characteristics you have described, and this is why you won't have a 79. Willie

David_Elvins

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2007, 06:14:22 AM »
Bryan,

I agree with most of what you say but a great short par 4 must be not only a great drivable hole but a great drive and pitch hole for the shorter hitters or when wind conditions are unfavorable for driving the green.  For this the hole needs width and options.  I cannot think of too many great short 4s that don't have width.  

I also like short holes that tempt you to take driver to leave a short shot even if you can't reach the green.  Risk/reward Holes that offer two realistic options -go for green, or layup 100 yards out are not as good IMO as holes that allow you to play to any distance from the green.
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Mark_Fine

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 06:44:54 AM »
Thought some of you might find this article we wrote on short fours interesting.  

http://www.finegolfdesign.com/articles/golf_tips_6_05.pdf

Ken Moum

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2007, 11:04:18 AM »
Just for the heck of it, I'll describe a short four that fails in almost every regard. (It's not the architect's fault, but a failure to build what he designed, IMHO.)

It's too long. 369 from the tips, 330 from the whites, 310 from the reds and 290 from the rarely used golds.

There's a lake all the way down the left side of the hole, and steep hill on the right, with a fairway that mostly slopes toward the water. Even a "safe" shot to the middle of the fairway sometimes rolls into the hazard, so most players aim at the hill. But many of them don't come back to the fairway.

For those whose shots hang up, it means hitting to a nearly blind green off a hanging lie, over huge trees, with water behind the green, which slopes toward the water

And balls hit short from up there either bound off the hill, or hang up in the rough or trees.

From the back tee, the hole plays as a totally blind dogleg right, with a reverse camber fairway. Essentially, you're hitting a blind shot directly at the lake, with the landing area sloped away from you.

Nearly all the big hitters end up aiming WAY right, hoping to catch a decent lie from which they can flip a wedge on the green from the top of the hill.

The ideal landing area about 100 yards from the green in the left side of the fairway, is a large hollow with a drain at the bottom, so the tee shots that do stay in the fairway often end up there.

Because of the contours, there's little beenfit in trying to hug the water for a better angle. In fact, the easiest way to find that hollow is to hit your tee shot on the cart path down the right side. Otherwise, unless you hit a hard fade, shots to the left half of the fairway are a great risk of going in the hazard.

At the green, the hill on the right has a big knob that projects out toward the right front of the green. Combined with the water hazard being only three feet off the green left, means it's an all-or-nothing shot. In fact, missing the green by 6 feet on the right commonly kicks the ball across the green into the water.

The sensible play would seem to be a bump and run but the sticky Zoysia fairway combines with a fairly steep upslope at the front of the green to make that shot almost impossible.

All in all, it turns a hole that should be an exciting opportunity at a birdie for golfers of all levels into a battle to prevent a double.

I have talked to the architect who designed the hole during a remodel, and I am pretty sure it's not what he had in mind.

If the tees were 300, 270, 250, 220 everyone would be enticed to try to drive the ball up near the green.

Providing a wider, somewhat flatter landing area that ran from about 150 yards from the hole in to about 100 yards, before narrowing, would mean that players could challenge the water for a better angle at the green or play away from the water knowing that it made the second more difficult.

Finally, taking back the knob on the right front of the green could have provided room for a challenging chipping area or bunker for those who had a failure of nerve on the second shot.

It was a great idea that seems to have failed in the execution.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Phil McDade

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2007, 11:50:18 AM »
Here's one I've played a lot (sorry, no pics). It's the 9th and final hole on a short, 9-hole course in southwestern Minnesota. Its members are largely mid-to-high handicappers, with a few folks who are big hitters and can play close to scratch on their good days:

It plays about 255 from the tips. It has an elevated tee, and the tee shot is a straightaway shot to a small valley. There is OB along the entire left side (it's a hole bordering the course property) from tee to green. Several mature trees border the right side of the fairway, with about 10-15 feet of rough between the fairway and the tree line.

About 50 yards from the green are two sets of large bunkers (two on each side) that pinch the fairway landing area, and are cut into a small rise in the fairway. They are the predominant factor to consider when thinking about driving the green. Behind the green lurks a very small, hidden bunker. The area between the bunkers is narrow, but not so narrow that a well-hit drive can't sneak through the opening (15-20 yards? I'm guessing, but it looks reasonable from the tee, not impossible.)

The green itself is not very big, crowned, with a noticeable back-to-front tilt. Even though it is small, it offers several pin positions. It sits on a little nob, and -- looking back toward the tee -- actually sits on higher ground than the tee (though the tee shot looks downhill from the tee). Thus, driving the green is actually an uphill shot, although it doesn't appear that way from the tee.

I really like the hole (it's one of my all-time favorite short par 4s) for the following reasons:

-- It is clearly tempting to drive the green, even for someone like myself who is not very long off the tee and plays to a pretty high handicap. The shot is "framed" very nicely from the tee, with all of the hazards (except the little bunker in back) obvious.

-- There is risk -- and risk to scoring par -- if you go for the green and don't get there, primarily from the two sets of two bunkers on either side of the fairway approaching the green. They are not greenside bunkers, and thus if you get in them, you have to execute what for most people is a tough shot -- the long bunker shot to a green that's not all that big. The OB left and tree line right -- although they truly only affect significantly wayward drives -- are there and obvious, putting more doubt on the tee shot.

-- The green itself is deceptively difficult, with some tough pin positions that don't automatically yield easy two-putts. I've putted off the green in the summer, when the course can get pretty fast and firm.

-- Even if you lay up off the tee with a mid-iron -- a very easy shot for almost anyone on this hole -- the resulting pitch shot is uphill (maybe even a club length uphill, or a full wedge instead of a 3/4's wedge) to a smallish, crowned green --- not the easiest of shots.

-- It comes at a good time in the round, as it's the last hole for either a 9 or 18-hole round, and thus the decision off the tee can be influenced by the game or round at hand.

I've putted for eagle on this hole, and played it in 7. That, to me, is one indication of the mark of a good, short par 4. If I were to ever design a course, I'd copy it nearly exactly (with maybe a back tee position to account for current technology and longer hitters.)



Wayne_Kozun

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2007, 11:56:47 AM »
I like a short par 4 that is drivable but which is a very tough par if you are short of the green and where it may be easier to make par or birdie from 100 yards out with a full wedge than from 30 yards in.  This can be accomplished by having a small green, particlarly where it is elevated.  Such a green will tend to hold a full shot much better than a half shot.  On such a hole it should be possible to make eagle or birdie but double bogey or worse is also possible, even without water hazards.

The 7th at my club, Scarboro, is exactly like this and many believe it is one of the best short par 4s in Canada.  

Powell Arms

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 01:42:06 PM »
One that tempts you to drive it with a perfectly struck ball, but also offers a safe alternative route.  The route to drive the hole would be well guarded to catch off-line shots, but designed to allow for the run-up of the sufficiently long drive.  For those days with wind or other factors (including, perhaps, better judgment) that prevent driving the hole, the safe route is probably more like 3 wood, wedge, and relatively hazard free.  The benchmark is #10 at Riviera, in my opinion.
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Jim Bearden

Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2007, 03:33:17 PM »
9 at CPC none better.

Jay Flemma

Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2007, 03:42:17 PM »
That the green does NOT accept a driver well...as Jim Engh says "I'll give you a chance to hit the green in less than regulation but you cant ask me to make it easy for you..."

Greg Tallman

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2007, 06:13:39 PM »
The best characteristic would be the lack of any similarity to hole #5 at Long Cove Club on Hilton Head Island.

Apologies to Anthony Nysse. But what a terrible golf hole. Of course that is one guy's opinion.

To examine why and thus answer the original question...

The aforementioned hole
-Does not tempt you to reach the green (although only 320ish)
-Offers no real options from the tee (hit it down there somewhere behind the mound that obscures any view of the green)
-Has a blind approach with a water hazard behind the green (and left which is OK)

Other than that it is great.

SO I suppose fro me the answer is:

1. Options
2. Risk
3. Temptation (does not necessarily imply reachable)
4. Green site and surounds that serve as a primary defense for the hole (be it undulation, hazards or blind shot for improperly executed tee shots)


For #3 above I would cite our #11 on The Ocean Course... Not reachable for me at 330-350 and ever so slightly uphill but the split fairway entices the golfer (well me anyway) to take the more difficult route more often than not regardless of pin position which even if you have no hope of reaching the green should dictate the line taken from the tee. So there you have a good short par 4 that even when not reachable offers options, temptation, risk and considerable defense at the green site.

I do not hold the 11th in particularly high regard but do find it a good shortish par 4 that for me is just as interesting when playing form the back tees and unable to reach the green as when playing from the middle set and easily reachable.



Bryan Izatt

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2007, 03:21:45 AM »
Bill,

Are you suggesting my ego would interfere with good course management on my way to blowing out my brains on the Moorings.  Or do you just remember my short game as being less than adequate?  :P  Given your short game you must do well there.

Mark, thanks for the article.  Well done.  I'm sure #10 at Merion is a fine short 4, but it misses one critical element for me.  I don't see a realistic possibility of driving the green as I'd need to run it on (unless it plays shorter than 310).  But then I'd probably be tempted anyway.  See reply to Bill above.

Wayne, good call on Scarborough.  What does that hole run - about 265 or 270.  It certainly meets all the criteria, although the gap between the fronting traps might be a bit wider.  I'm just grousing 'cause I took a double from the trees left, the last time I was there.  But how can any self-respecting man play a hole 5 iron, SW?  As a member what percentage of time do you layup vs going for it.  Does one option work better for you score-wise, or does it all average out?

One of my own personal favourite driveable 4's is the 5th (I think) at Royal Aberdeen.  About 285 from an elevated tee in the dunes.  A ribbon of fairway bending slightly right.  A bunch of pot bunkers, but enough room to thread a shot through.  The pots or the fescue catches the less than good shot.  An added bonus is that from the elevated tee you can see it all and follow the progress (or not) of your ball all the way to the green.


Willie_Dow

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2007, 05:36:55 AM »
Bryan:  You have hit the nail on the head when you bring up the short game.  Any club or course that fails to offer an area for practicing the short game for it players should be either lowering its dues or shutting down, these days.

I see more players around the practice area for short play than on the range here !

Peter Zarlengo

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2007, 07:45:00 PM »
Does a good short par 4 have to be drivable, in your opinion. Can't an option be presented off the tee whether to hit driver and then a short pitch onto the green or an iron and then a full shot?

Joe Hancock

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2007, 09:15:11 PM »
Bryan:  You have hit the nail on the head when you bring up the short game.  Any club or course that fails to offer an area for practicing the short game for it players should be either lowering its dues or shutting down, these days.

I see more players around the practice area for short play than on the range here !

Willie,

That's a pretty tough indictment on clubs that are old, cramped and landlocked.

Interesting premise though...why is it that important to have the so called short game area these days...when apparently there wasn't such a demand for it way back when?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

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Phil McDade

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2007, 01:40:19 PM »
Does a good short par 4 have to be drivable, in your opinion. Can't an option be presented off the tee whether to hit driver and then a short pitch onto the green or an iron and then a full shot?

Peter:

That's a good question. I chose a driveable one because it's hole with a fundamental option on the tee that includes driving the green.

A couple of months ago, there was a really neat thread here on GCA that featured shortish par 4s with centerline bunkers, and I think all of those (the thread examined three holes featuring centerline bunkering) were holes in which the basic decision on the tee was: how much should I challenge the centerline bunkering? None of the holes appeared driveable, but taking on the bunkers successfully meant a shorter shot into the green. Laying up meant a much longer iron into the green, and sometimes at a tougher angle. It seems a hole has to have some kind of penal elemant to it in the middle of, or very near, the fairway landing area to present the kind of risk/reward scenario you describe.

Bryan Izatt

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2007, 03:38:19 PM »
Peter, Phil,

Upon reflection maybe I should have made the thread about driveable par 4's as opposed to short par 4's (where there is no drive it option).  Short par 4's could be in the 310 to 350 range where the options are about where to place your first shot to give yourself the best second shot.  I was more focussed in this thread on the criteria for a driveable par 4.  The central concept being that if you play the right tees there should be a greater than zero possibility that you can drive the green.

As a tangent, what makes short (not driveable) par 4's interesting?  Would the 10th at Merion be a model for that kind of hole.  Sounds like it from Mark's article.

Tom_Doak

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2007, 05:22:58 PM »
Bryan:

I have avoided your question because I thought it was too broad ... there are 100 ways to build a cool short par 4.  In fact, I think they are the holes which offer the widest latitude for interesting design, because the angle of approach can vary greatly with the placement of the tee shot, and because you can afford to lay back off the tee if you want.

However I was working on a plan Friday for a driveable par 4 on our new project in Colorado, and one thing which I believe is essential on that type of hole is for the hazard(s) to come back well away from the green, so that someone who tries for the green and hits a really poor shot (or who was suffering from hubris because they're not really good enough to drive the green) will wind up with a dreaded 40-yard bunker shot or something like that.  A great short par 4 must offer the possibility of bogey or double bogey so that the good player will be psychologically destroyed if he messes up.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2007, 06:08:37 PM »
Greg,
  No offense taken at all.....um, it's not my favorite hole at Long Cove, let just say that.   ;)
   Mr. Dye has  built several of these style par 4's that offer NO benefit of taking the driver out and going for it. Each one has substancial mounding fronting the green. Maybe he was making the golfer be disciplined. #5 at Old Marsh, #12 at TPC Sawgrass and of course, #5 at Long Cove come to mind.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Bryan Izatt

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2007, 06:16:19 PM »
Tom,

I understand the hubris, punishment and psychological destruction (my you architects are mean spirited some times  ;) )  and agree that those would be good characteristics for short 4's.  Because, where would the glory be if it's too easy to drive the hole and could be done by most without some fear of a big score.

But, I hope that your "driveable" hole in Colorado will be 300 or less yards from the 6400-6500 tee set.  And, not 300 yards carry.  Or there is elevation or prevailing winds that suck us into believing, on more than one occasion, that we can make it.  If it doesn't then it seems to me that it destroys the concept of the hole after you try it once and have your ego destroyed because there is no real possibility of driving it.  So, bringing hazards back toward the tee is OK with me to catch the poor shot and raise the spectre of a big number, but give us some latitude to be able to reach the green and not have to fly it the whole way.

As I mentioned above, the 5th at Royal Aberdeen fits the bill for me.  Have you seen it?  Do you think it's well designed as a driveable 4?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 06:18:12 PM by Bryan Izatt »

Jerry Kluger

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2007, 06:30:27 PM »
Tom: I would imagine that a hole which meets your criteria would include #7 at Sand Hills.  Short par 4 which has many interesting features including a very deep bunker left and well short of the green.  The fairway slopes to the right and you need to hit a draw or the ball will kick hard right into the desert.  The green is at a sever angle toward the left with a lower front and raised back tier.  Then comes #8 which is also short and has a very cool green with interesting options to get to the pin, a similar idea, although very different execution, when compared to the short par 4 on the front at Ballyneal.(Excuse my old age - I don't remember the number.)  

cary lichtenstein

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2007, 06:41:26 PM »
There are 4 short par 4's at the Quarry at Giants Ridge. I think that of all the courses I have played, it is the best set of multiple short par 4's.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Bryan Izatt

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2007, 07:26:42 PM »
Cary,

I looked at the aerials of the course and I wanted to clarify whether you meant four "short" or "driveable" par 4's.  The one to the west of the driving range and the one across the top of the property looks driveable and interesting.  What's the topology look like on those two?  Is it realistic to drive them from the right tees?  The one across the top with the tuning fork fairway, I'd be curious as to what the tee shor options are.  All the angles look difficult for a lay-up,  Is there a drop to the green or a rock wall on level ground, or a rock face you have to hit up to the top of to get to the green?

Tom_Doak

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2007, 07:39:57 PM »
Cary:

I still haven't seen The Quarry at Giant's Ridge -- I plan to get up there this spring.  However, can it really have a better set of short par-4's than Cypress Point or Merion or Pine Valley or Crystal Downs?  Their great short 4's are the reason those courses are the 10's in The Confidential Guide, and not the 9's.

Bryan:

The course in Denver is at 5000 feet so I think it had better be a bit more than 300 yards from the regular tee.  We'll probably put a tee at 280 also.  The only two sub-300-yard par-4's I've built to date are the two at Barnbougle Dunes -- we were working in metric so I wasn't worried about the stigma -- and they are two of the best we've done.

Peter Zarlengo

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Re:What are the characteristics of a good short 4?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2007, 07:42:31 PM »
Bryan-
One feature on some of the best short (drive and pitch) two shot holes I have played is elevation change. Nothing gets me second guessing my 50 to 100 yards into the green like a severe uphill or downhill shot. Mainly, I believe, two keys to a good drive and pitch hole are

1. To give the player an option to hit driver and be rewarded with a short pitch. Otherwise a tougher full shot awaits.
2. Dont make the pitch into the green a slam dunk by keeping the player on their toes.