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Tom Huckaby

Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2007, 06:37:54 PM »
Sean - understood completely.  I'm guess I'm just also trying to get across that if the line is drawn very firmly in keeping with the normal definition of "links", then neither Bandon nor Pacific would count, and of course Sand Hills wouldn't either.  If you want to broaden it a bit to include cliffs about the ocean, then of course Bandon and Pacific count.  But if you base it on how the course PLAYS, then Sand Hills would also.

It is good news that courses that are like this are being saved, recognized, built, etc. though... they are the best of what golf can be.  Or at least I think so.

TH

Jay Flemma

Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2007, 06:50:13 PM »
I liked the article and have no prob w/ Tom including PD.

I especially took note of Zandvoort (sp?)  Tom, what are some other great LINKS in continental Europe?  Any in Germany  France or Belgium that you like?  Italy?

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2007, 07:57:52 PM »
I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.

What does this mean?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2007, 08:15:03 PM »
Jay:

The only links I have seen are Haagsche and Kennemer in Holland and Le Touquet in France, and I didn't get to play any of those at the time.  I'd love to get back.  I suspect the best links in Europe is either Royal Zoute, Noordwijk, or Falsterbo, but until I get a summer off, I won't be able to answer that question.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2007, 09:11:11 PM »
Tom,

I can't speak to Zoute or Falsterbo, but I preferred both Kennemer and Haagsche to Noordwijk.

Frank Pont's got a ton of good pics of all three, obviously, but Noordwijk has some gorgeous open links holes and then stuff like this:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Holland/Noordwijk%201/pages/Noordwijk%20Mei%202005%20053.htm

Without clogging up the thread too much, there's another par-three on the back nine that offers this (similarly claustrophobic) look:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Holland/Noordwijk%201/pages/Noordwijk%20Mei%202005%20094.htm

For sheer memorability, diversity of holes and plain old fun, my money's on Haagsche's wild terrain all the way. But all three courses do seem to have their proponents, and all are far from perfect. There are much worse ways to pass a long weekend than moving up the North Sea coast to play these three, though!

Really hoping to catch Zoute at some point.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 09:13:27 PM by Tom Dunne »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2007, 09:21:21 PM »
I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.

What does this mean?

This means that with the defined fringes and subtle large breaks the greens at Bandon Dunes look like they could be on any parkland course in the U.S..  I just think the greens at Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails tie into the surrounding land or fairways in a way that is not common in the States...without a fringe and all that is.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2007, 11:00:06 PM »
I thought the T&L article was well reasoned and well written. Unlike most of these travel book articles, I actually learnt a couple of things reading this list.... even though Tom's reasoning about leaving out the Open rota courses might have made more sense if:

a) He mentioned it in the article.
b) He left out the course that has hosted the most Open Championships. (Although I guess that would be like asking Lou Duran or the like to discuss the modern conservative movement without mentioning Barry Goldwater.)

I did find Tom's comparison of Pebble Beach and NSW as cliff top courses to be curiously off-base. While I would agree with his assessment that neither course is a true links, the playing surfaces, grasses and elevation changes make them as disimilar as two world class courses looking out on a common body of water can be. (Of course Tom is not exactly the only person who mentions these two in the same sentence. I got so tired any question starting, "So Anthony, you lived in California, how much is this course like Pebble... "  that I donated a copy of 'Alister Mackenzie's Cypress Point' to the NSWGC Library and referred them to the book.)

Also the reason why more world class seaside/links courses have not been built on the Australian mainland  is not entirely due to the lack of suitable land... there are literally hundreds of square miles in the areas between Lake Macquarie and Nelsons Bay, including the whole Myall Bay area that fit the definition of linksland to a tee.

Until very recently, however, there was neither the population or a person with the vision or capital to build the kind of course that would make this list. With the Macquarie Bank/Greg Norman juggernaut in full swing, the sad and inescapable fact is that should an opportunity arise in this area, GWS's name would be more likely to move the surrounding $500,000+ building sites than a Tom Doak course.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 07:53:45 AM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2007, 11:09:42 AM »
I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.

What does this mean?

This means that with the defined fringes and subtle large breaks the greens at Bandon Dunes look like they could be on any parkland course in the U.S..  I just think the greens at Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails tie into the surrounding land or fairways in a way that is not common in the States...without a fringe and all that is.

John,

Aren't the fringes more of a maintenance issue than a design issue?  Have you played links golf in the UK or Ireland?  I'm just wondering about the basis for your comparison.  

BTW, Bandon Dunes does sort of remind me of Donegal Golf Club (Murvagh).  You wouldn't nominate Murvagh as a great golf course, but I had a great time playing it.  

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2007, 11:56:48 AM »
Are there any good links courses in Denmark?  I seem to remember the article mentioning there are sand dunes and golf there....
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 04:31:26 PM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2007, 03:42:09 PM »
I was happy to see that he included RND and Kennemer.  I was pleasantly surprised when I played Kennemer last year.  RND is on land that is unlike any other links course and has some holes that are absolutely one of a kind.  It is not everyone's cup of tee but it is a throwback to an earlier time and for as weemingl easy as it seems, when you add up the score you wonder, "I thought I played better."
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2007, 04:00:27 PM »
...RND is on land that is unlike any other links course and has some holes that are absolutely one of a kind. ...

Hi Tommy,

Please educate the ignorant amonst us.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rich Goodale

Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2007, 04:18:49 PM »
Any decent links golf course has holes that are "absolutely one of a kind."  RND's charm is in its goofiness.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2007, 04:43:01 PM »
Garland,

RND = Royal North Devon.

(There really should be a GCA.com course acronym appendix.)

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2007, 04:45:15 PM »
True or false?

The land in the Sandhills of Nebraska looks (and plays) the way it does because there was once a sea there.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2007, 05:05:11 PM »
Tom,

I knew that. And, what Rich wrote makes absolute sense. I went to the club website and looked at the pictures which were not very illuminating.

Now all I need to know is the quirkyness from "Pete Dye's demented uncle" and his use of railroad ties.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2007, 05:10:24 PM »
Who here has played Granville and La Mer?  What do you think?  

(Rich, glad to have you back, btw.)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2007, 01:54:52 AM »
...RND is on land that is unlike any other links course and has some holes that are absolutely one of a kind. ...

Hi Tommy,

Please educate the ignorant amonst us.


Royal North Devon has a number of idiocyncracies.  Holes Four-sevenare played over ground that is more like an ocean of heaves, bumps, and waves.  Holes 10-13 are in the great sea rushes.  I have not seen them on any other course.  The a six or seven foot high spikey grass that could spear an old gutty.  The most unique feature, I think, are the greens complexes.  I am not certain how to even describe them.  They are raised in a way but only as the ground around them moves.  They are brilliantly bunkered complete with sheep foot prints and.  The first and last holes are played over wet ground that hardly ever dries out.  It may havae the shortest par five in the country.  It is about 440yards.  The problem is not reaching the green it is gettin on the green.  It is a raised green the moves like a wave on ground.  I have been on the fringe and hit what I though was a good chip that ends up in a bunker.  

You must like barnyard animals because there are plenty of them.  At least sheep and horses.  There is a local rule that allows the player to move a ball that is in sheep shit or horse manure.  I usually try to get my partner to move the ball for me.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2007, 01:56:30 AM »
Any decent links golf course has holes that are "absolutely one of a kind."  RND's charm is in its goofiness.

I couldn't say it any better.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Doak's favorite links courses
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2007, 03:54:43 PM »
Thanks Tommy!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne