[David Stamm]

Unless I'm not seeing it on the list, I'm surprised Sleepy Hollow isn't on the list. I hear it's quite good and if a cheerleader has an effect, George Peper is a memeber there and always praises it.

[Glenn Spencer]

Isn't Kittansett #58 John?

Like I have said before..Nobody pays attention to these lists, including me.  I just knew that course was good enough.  I haven't seen it yet but maybe Broadmoor in Indy can get the nod even though I think Indiana might already have its fill.  I'm not sure if the recent cheerleading by a long time poster on this site fell on deaf ears or not.

John,

Who was singing Broadmoor's praises recently? That is one hell of a good golf course. I think it is in the same class as Holston Hills. Both courses have excellent flexiblilty with their pars and have a tremendous amount of wonderful holes. Holston is probably a little more on the exciting side, but Broadmoor might be more solid overall.

[David Stamm]

Also, with Engineer's making it maybe this will create some new found interest in Strong's work. Saucon Valley isn't on the list either so who knows?

[wsmorrison]

Glenn,

Topping 10 and 14 at Rolling Green is almost impossible.  Pine Valley 3 and 5 does succeed though as does 15 and 16 at Cypress (I imagine).

I'll also propose Merion East 3 and 9, Philadelphia Country 11 and 15, Kittansett 11 and 14, Cascades 4 and 8 and Manufacturers 6 and 8.

[David Stamm]

I'll nominate 3 and 8 at Pasatiempo, and 5 isn't too bad either.

[PCCraig]

I couldn't be happier to see the Dunes be rated so high.

I first played there in High School and fell in love with the place instantly. The atmosphere and golf is, in my opinion, the perfect way to play golf. I have gone back a handful of times and played at least 27 a day each time and have never grown sick of any of the holes.

Now I would rather play 9 great holes a day than 9 good/9 filler holes. Why would that now garner higher rankings?

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn't Kittansett #58 John?

Like I have said before..Nobody pays attention to these lists, including me.  I just knew that course was good enough.  I haven't seen it yet but maybe Broadmoor in Indy can get the nod even though I think Indiana might already have its fill.  I'm not sure if the recent cheerleading by a long time poster on this site fell on deaf ears or not.

John,

Who was singing Broadmoor's praises recently? That is one hell of a good golf course. I think it is in the same class as Holston Hills. Both courses have excellent flexiblilty with their pars and have a tremendous amount of wonderful holes. Holston is probably a little more on the exciting side, but Broadmoor might be more solid overall.

The cheerleader for Broadmoor U is the long time poster and good friend of Ran and Indiana golf Ted Sturges.  I think his one drawback to getting the course ranked is that he is not a rater for Golfweek so can not vote for his course himself.  But like I recently proved I could be wrong.

[Adam Clayman]

As an FYI for all you with either cabin fever or good taste in architecture...

Wild Horse is open for business. I just got off the phone and WH came through this last winter unscathed and is in likely the best shape for imaginative shot making.
 
The forecast is for warmer than normal weather for the next ten days. Josh will be cutting the greens next week, so come on down.

[Jim Franklin]

I might have to fly out there from Baltimore because we are projected to be back doen in the 20s overnight by the weekend and low 40s during the day for the high. Ugh.

[PThomas]

I might have to fly out there from Baltimore because we are projected to be back doen in the 20s overnight by the weekend and low 40s during the day for the high. Ugh.

Jim -  pls stop and pick me up, cause I'll get that SH*$TY weather before you

[C. Squier]

Andy,

Wolf Run is marvelous!!! There is little doubt about that. I would still like to see someone name a better pair of par 3's on one nine than 13 and 16 at The Wolf. One of the best long ones and seriously one of the best real short ones. However, I am asking for your help. Please explain the positives of #15 to me. I must have missed something.

#15 gives you 3 options IMO, which makes it strategically interesting to me.  

1.  Hit a driver w/ a hard draw around the bend.  You're putting "blow it deep into the right woods" seriously into play w/ this option.  A long hitter can also reach the stream at the bottom of the hill if they hit it well too.  I don't hit driver unless the course is pretty wet.

2.  3 wood into the meat of the fairway.  This is what I usually do, play a straight ball or a little draw into the guts of the fairway.  200-215 into the hole, the further left you are, the better.  

3.  5 iron, 5 iron wedge.  Safe play, pretty much wraps bogey up....which as you realize the more times you play, is probably par for the course.  

I also like #15 because I watched my boss nearly impale himself on his own 6 iron.  Bottom of the valley, 2 feet in the air when he made contact....all while falling forward.  Unfortunately for our match, he hit it to 20 feet (somehow) and had an easy 2 putt.  It was one of those moments when you start chuckling, only to realize you may be laughing at someone who is seriously hurt.  "You ok man?"  "Yeah, I'm fine".  Then back to laughing.

I think what also makes #15 is that after you let your breath out after making a great par or a decent bogey, you're faced w/ a delicate wedge shot on #16.  10 seconds of hang-time, not an atom in your body moves while the ball is in the air.  Great times.

CPS  

[Glenn Spencer]

Clint,

You described it perfectly. Those are the reasons that I don't particularly like it. Too tough a golf hole from 220 out. If you could hit driver fine, but 220 off a downhill and sidehill lie to an uphill green with stuff right is too much and that is if you find the fairway off the tee. 8-10 can be made here too easily. I LOVE hard golf holes and hard courses, but I thought this went a little too far. Could be wrong though, only played it a few times. Love the course though.

[Bob Barriger]

Clint, you hit it right on the head about playing #15 at WRGC.  Multiple options off the tee. 12-15 at WRGC is about as good as it gets, then you get to #16 a downhill par 3 about 130 yds with Eagle Creek a little in front and all along the left side of the green.  Smyers put in a new tee at about 153 yds last year, a little father back and a little left of the former back tee.  You can go from 2 to 5 or more on #16 real easy.

[Jim Thompson]

Rating   Classic       Modern
10        1-5             1-5
9          6-15           6-15
8         16-40          16-40
7         41-100         41-100
6         101-200       101-200
5         201-500       201-750
4         501-1500     751-2000
3         1501-3000    2001-5000
2         3001-6000    5001-9000
1         6001-7000    9001-10,000

I get it!!!  It makes sense now!! Yippeee!!

[Andy Troeger]

Glenn,
Sorry I've been gone, but your question was answered well by others who have seen the hole more often than I. I liked it, even after I made about an 8 the first time around then an odd bogey the second

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

Topping 10 and 14 at Rolling Green is almost impossible.  Pine Valley 3 and 5 does succeed though as does 15 and 16 at Cypress (I imagine).

I'll also propose Merion East 3 and 9, Philadelphia Country 11 and 15, Kittansett 11 and 14, Cascades 4 and 8 and Manufacturers 6 and 8.

Wayne,

Good set there. Unfortunately, I haven't played any of those. I must admit, I overstated my case, I meant to say the best long and short par 3's. I imagine Cypress still has an edge there. I don't know the length of 3 at Pine Valley or 3 at Merion. I don't know if they would work or not. The others I don't know, but I don't know if I am ready to move from my statement on them. 13 and 16 at The Wolf are a wonderful contrast. Standing on the back tee at 13 is awesome and so is hitting a baby wedge on 16. I would really like to see the new tee at 16. Hard to beat what was there. Thanks again for your wonderful response. Those are good ones.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,
Sorry I've been gone, but your question was answered well by others who have seen the hole more often than I. I liked it, even after I made about an 8 the first time around then an odd bogey the second

Andy,

Yes, Clint gave a very good example of why he liked it. The approach reminded me so much of the approach to 7 at Inverness that it was scary. I didn't think that hole was all that great either. Much easier than The Wolf though.


p.s.- I hammered 2 2-irons my first time and came up just short and made 4. Second time? 7 or something outrageous like that. I was sentenced to 3-5 years after visiting the right side jail cell. It is ugly up on that hill, if you haven't been there.

[Andy Troeger]

Glenn,
I made a 5 from the right from the tee (I actually I think hit it almost all the way to 17 fairway--oops). I thought the punch back was reasonable then hit the green from the bottom of the hill and missed the putt. It was left that was completely dead--nowhere to drop. Its very hard to be sure, I thought the hardest on the course, but fun to try to tackle.

[Stan Burton]

Glenn,
The new back tee at Wolf Run's #16 brings slight changes to the angle which makes the creek more dramatic, plus the added elevation allows you to feel the wind in your face.  16 is certainly not a let-up hole and can produce more double bogeys than birdies.

I agree with your point that #15 is simply a very difficult hole.  The strenght of the hole is where it falls in the rotation.  The par 4, 12th has the most difficult approach shot on the course and is followed by the par 3, 13th, which is the hardest hole on the course relative to par.  Back that up with a risk/reward difficult par 4 and then you are ready to play the hardest par 4 in Indiana.  The hole by itself is too hard, but the warm-up makes it fit.  It also allows you to let your guard down before you play #16.  

Come and see the changes that Steve has made the last couple of years and I think you will enjoy it.

[Jim Nugent]

The average scores for both Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes show that well more than half the raters don't place either course in the top 5.  Either that, or some raters don't place either course in the top 15 (that's what a 9 means) or the top 40 (an or less.  Same is true of Pine Valley on the classic side.  

Only one course got more 10's than 9's (or any other score).  CPC.  

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