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Lakeside Golf Club in Burbank, California...

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Peter Pallotta:
TE, Bob

everything (of the little) I know about this fascinating subject I've learned here, and from posts like yours; so I can't explain why I think Behr gets to the heart of things, but I do. I really hope there'll be much more to come in terms of studies and explanations. In the meantime, opting out of trying to answer TE's question is my only choice. But, here's something that struck me as an interesting parallel, though it probably adds nothing to this discussion:

"What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension, how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me; no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so."

Hamlet was having a bad week; but he raises some pretty fundamental questions - maybe something like (to borrow a bit from another of TE's posts):

Does man want the golfing experience to test the fullest possible range of his skills and sporting instincts?

Peter
 

TEPaul:
"You've asked that question a couple of times now. It does go to the heart of things. I've been thinking about it. It raises big, bigger and humongous questions."

Bob:

It probably does raise big, bigger or even humongous questions, but my sense is it shouldn't scare us to ask them.

The reason I say that is let's just say it's somewhat determined that he was wrong and did over-estimate man, the golfer, and his sensibilities when he wrote what he did way back then----does that mean man, the golfer, will never care or does it mean that for whatever reason he just accepts what he's given in a general sense?

Let's just say for the hell of it that the architectural philosophy that Behr laid out had really come to pass in a massive way. We don't really know what man, the golfer, would have felt about it do we, since it really never did come to pass.

This is a question which I believe will eventually end up at the age old question of whether golf architects, generally speaking, should be leaders or followers? It may even get down to the old question of what an artist creates art for!  ;)

Obviously, compared to other art forms, the art form of golf course architecture is substantially complicated in that vein since golf architecture is so interactive even if one does view it as an art form.

On the other hand, buildings are interactive too, and history seems to show that didn't much stop the creative artistic expressions and independence of building architects. The only real difference between building architecture as an art form and golf course architecture as an art form in an interactive sense is one cannot exactly go inside on a golf course's architecture.  ;)

Adam Clayman:

--- Quote from: TEPaul on March 10, 2007, 10:32:13 AM ---
Of course one could blame Lakeside's entire plight on an uncaring and unaware membership---frankly that's always an easy and convenient thing to do, but honestly that may not be the most intelligent way of looking at Lakeside, as well as at Behr's entire architectural philosophy.



--- End quote ---

Tom, Perhaps it is easy and convenient because they are the only ones who should've been respecting their course, it's design, and most importantly the philosophies of their mad genius.

Was Lakeside built before or after Max started rallying against the trends?



 

Michael Robin:
David -

Lakeside is a really good test and the set up is incredibly difficult for The Kelly Cup. Lots of rough and very firm and fast greens, which makes the already small targets miniscule. A very good driving test and the small greens require exacting iron play. Par 70 with 2 par 5s on the front and none on the back. Better get off to a good start, 'cause after the 2nd hole it gets really tough. The stretch of 5-9 is brutal, even the really pretty short par 3 6th. The 5th is a dog leg left par 4 over a rise that is the best hole on the course IMO. Good set of par 3s that don't tolerate poor shots. The 9th is a brutal example as you have 240 yards to a heavily bunkered, bit of a reverse redan green that usually has rough on the slope rendering the redan pretty useless.

Back side has some good holes and some tricky ones. 11 is a terrific hole with several options off the tee. If you are bold and flirt with the OB right with a required cut drive, you are rewarded with a short approach. If you miss it left, you're blocked from the green and right is as described. If you use a short, safe club you are left with a long approach into a smallish green. Good test of nerve and execution. 12th is a short hole with more risk reward options. Driver around the trees and down the hill leaves a small pitch, but don't miss left. 3 iron off the tee leaves a 9 iron approach into a tiny green. Try both shots in your practice round. Be very careful with the 13th. Very short and enticing. Just get it in the fairway every day and you'll beat the field on this hole.

A big key as always with fast greens is find yourself below the hole, only thing here is they are so small(probably the smallest I know of) and firm that leaving yourself short is very exacting. The green contours are subtle, but do still have movement. When they are fast it makes putting short ones a real test of nerve, 'cause they require a firm stroke to hold the line.

There's a bunch of rambled thoughts. Maybe see you out there.

Michael Robin:
David, one other thing. There is a Honey Baked Ham store on Riverside Drive about 5 minutes from the course in Toluca Lake. In the hallway to the parking lot is an old rendering of the original routing of Behr's. It shows how the nines were flipped, and the old green on what I believe is now 12 used to be across the L.A. River on the Universal Studios property approximately where Steven Spielberg's office now sits. The 13th tee was also across the wash. The rest of the routing looks to be intact.

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