[Ryan Farrow]

I had the distinct pleasure of playing Vista Verde today. I must say that I was very impressed with the course. It kind of makes me wonder how so many boring golf courses are being built today. The views on the course are spectacular and will definitely catch your eye before you even think of hitting your tee shot. Whenever my game started to go down the drain all I had to do was look off into the mountains and everything was ok. I think I will just make a list of things I like about the course and things I do not, here we go:

Likes:
-Very Strategic
-Good variety of par 3's, 4's, 5's
-Green contours
-Fairway movement
-Great conditioning
-Setting
-Price

Dislikes:
-Green surrounds (almost every green is raised at least 6 ft.)
-Bunker style
-The wash on the drivable par 4
-The drivable par 4
-Lack of a memorable hole


I would definitely recommend this course to anyone who lives in the area or visiting. With that said I am really disappointed in the housing that will be surrounding the golf course. A lot of the views will be ruined and it will loose its serene, relaxing setting. I’m not sure I will want to make the hour long drive from southern Tempe to visit another housing development course a few years from now but in the mean time I will try to get out to VV more often.

Matt, I don’t see how you could say this course is better than Talking Stick. IMO TSN has a couple world class golf holes and VV frankly has zero. That is not to say VV is not a great golf course, but it is no TSN. I prefer a more subtle course and I am guessing you do not. If that is the case I respect your opinion but architecturally TSN is a better golf course.

Some photos and comments below:

-Opening tee shot, notice those mountains?






-#4 I like to call this hole the "dog bone", don't worry the picture in the yardage book explains it all. This bunkering makes me want to cry. No, not tears of joy, more like agony.





-#6 592 yard par 5. Reachable on 2 great shots. Best hole on the course.






-#7 330 yard par 4 downhill from the tips, very reachable. I am guessing this "wash" is supposed to keep you honest, Try two shots with the 460 CC Launcher into the desert. Honestly, what is that thing?





- Behind #8 green. One needs to look no further than some uncontrolled runoff and what a wash really looks like, albeit on a smaller scale.





-#13 greenside bunker. Props for thinking outside the box and doing something different. I'm just not too sure how this works yet.

[Bryan Izatt]

Ryan,

I think it was me who liked VV better than TSN (although Matt may have said that too).  I liked it better because the land it is on is better and the courses otherwise seemed similar to me.  Apart from the two world class holes that you think TSN has, what are the other features that make TSN better in your view.

I liked the driveable par 4 because I could, well, drive it.  I agree the wash was a little weak as a defence, but then if it was more penal, it wouldn't be a driveable par 4.  The hole was really protected by the narrow green, deep bunkers and the runoffs.  Do I understand that you were in the desert twice on the hole?  I guess that may have colored your view.

You see the 6th as a reachable par 5 at 592  I guess the 'roids are working for you.  Looks like a 340 drive up to the wash and then 255 to get home.  I'm impressed.

What's outside the box about the bunker on 13?  For the fans following the pictures at home, the bunker is supported by a 6 foot concrete wall on one side.  The top of it is visible in the first picture.  I presume it's there to deflect the summer flash floods coming down the hill.  Hopefully it's effective, but it sure isn't aesthetic from the other side.  It would never be mistaken for minimalism.

[Andy Troeger]

Ryan,
I've also said that I like VV better than TSN, and to me it was not close, so I would echo Bryan's question. Also, what two holes at TSN are world class? There's some good ones at both places, but I thought VV had a lot more variety in the design.

As to the drivable par four, its a good hole to me because of the bunkering and the OB to the right of the green. I made about an 8 on it by going long right twice, I wish I'd have been in the wash which obviously isn't as much of a penalty. The benefit of the wash is that from the tee it steers you toward either making the choice to go for it or not, then steers you toward the trouble (although maybe not once you know that its not much of a defense).

I do agree about the housing, I'd advise others to play it now if they have an interest.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,

I guess you're not a fan of sharp edges.  Probably not a lot of Scandanvian furniture in your house.    One man's aesthetic nightmare is another's thing of beauty.  To me the bunkering fits in well with the stark, rocky, crisp, clear, hard-edged milieu of the desert.  But, it will never be mistaken for a links or a parkland style.  It's a big world.

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan,

I think it was me who liked VV better than TSN (although Matt may have said that too).  I liked it better because the land it is on is better and the courses otherwise seemed similar to me.  Apart from the two world class holes that you think TSN has, what are the other features that make TSN better in your view.

I liked the driveable par 4 because I could, well, drive it.  I agree the wash was a little weak as a defence, but then if it was more penal, it wouldn't be a driveable par 4.  The hole was really protected by the narrow green, deep bunkers and the runoffs.  Do I understand that you were in the desert twice on the hole?  I guess that may have colored your view.

You see the 6th as a reachable par 5 at 592  I guess the 'roids are working for you.  Looks like a 340 drive up to the wash and then 255 to get home.  I'm impressed.

What's outside the box about the bunker on 13?  For the fans following the pictures at home, the bunker is supported by a 6 foot concrete wall on one side.  The top of it is visible in the first picture.  I presume it's there to deflect the summer flash floods coming down the hill.  Hopefully it's effective, but it sure isn't aesthetic from the other side.  It would never be mistaken for minimalism.

To answer your question, what makes TSN better than VV? It’s quite simple; I have blind faith in the signature architects. But to be completely honest with you TSN has better bunkering and better greens. I still can't get over the fact of how almost every green at VV was raised at least 6 feet on just about every side. The average golfer does not hit many greens so I'm sure a lot of people like me had at least a dozen chip shots to greens over their heads. It gets very boring and repetitive. At TSN you have holes like 2, 5, 11, and 12. Most of these holes are very subtle and don't need tricked up to be memorable. At VV you do get that feeling like someone was trying to hard to make the course something its not. Especially with those views I think a lot more restraint with some of the bunkering and plantings would have made the place feel more natural and less forced.

As far as the driveable par 4 goes... just because you can reach the green in one does not make it a good hole. There is just no penalty for taking a shot at the green. And as far as #6 I played from a tee up so it was not quite that long. If you want to challenge the right fairway bunker you can get a real nice firm bounce of the back slope of that bunker. If you can do that you could run one up/near the green or decide to play it right and flirt with desert/bunker to get a better angle or play safe left and have to deal with the greenside bunker. This is by far the best hole on the course, no roids needed.

[Andy Troeger]

Ryan,
To each his own I guess, you certainly are not alone I'm sure with your preference.

I do disagree with your statement that there is no risk to going for the 7th at Vista Verde. Any shot to the right of the right bunker (only 15 yards right of the green more or less) is OB. I hit it there...

[Bryan Izatt]

Ryan,

To each their own, I guess.  You'll find other supporters on here for TSN being the best subtle art of design course.  I agree it's subtle and it's artistic for a very mundane site.  Much earth must have been moved to create what movement there is in the course.  That was artfully done.  If you like subtle low profile, that's fair.  Whether it's better than VV, well that's debateable.

For instance, take the much beloved TSN #2 vs VV #6.  The strategy at #2 is clear - play along the fence and get a good line and shorter second to the green and avoid the green side bunker, all at the risk of OB.  Or play wide right where there's lots of room and play a wedge over the bunker to the green.  It's like playing up a flat football field.  If the green's receptive, it's a no brainer that early in the round.  

VV #6 is a good 50 yards longer so there's not much hope of getting there in two for most of us.  But there is strategy off the tee and where to lay up on the second to give yourself the best chance of hitting and holding a difficult green with a difficult bunker front left.  Each shot is more interesting given the choice of line and the bunkers that provide some risk on each shot.  And, the green presents a more interesting challlenge. And the hole has some elevation change uphill.  So, which is the better hole?

As to whether the greens are repetitive, they weren't all elevated 6 feet.  I guess if they are repetitive and boring then Pinehurst #2 must be also.

I don't get the tricked up or making the course something it's not comments.  I thought the design was true to its concept.  I thought the elevations and fall-aways were consistent with the topology of the land.  It certainly didn't detract from the views.  I didn't feel it was tricked up, but then each to his own.

Although being able to drive a par 4 does not make it a good hole, it seems to me that a pre-requisite of a good short par 4 is some possibility that I have a chance of actually getting there.  Else what's the point of a short 4.  If it's 320 or 330, I know I can't reach it.  There's no point in taking driver and risking whatever risk there is.  It's boring to always hit 3 iron off the tee for position.  

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()