[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Good one.  How could I have forgotten?  

Just to clarify, I think Hugh Wilson should be given the majority of credit for overseeing the golf committee and courses until his death in early 1925.  Wilson and Flynn collaborated conceptually on the work between the course opening and Wilson's death.  Flynn made the architectural plans and constructed them through his Toomey and Flynn contracting firm along with Joe Valentine, the course superintendent.  After Wilson's death, it would seem that Flynn alone was responsible for the design changes.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't think GD or Golf Magazine would have the gall to rank Augusta so low, regardless of the merits.  

I can't remember the year, and it might have been as many as fifteen or twenty years ago, but Augusta actually fell out of the top ten in the GD rankings.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

There were two companies.  The design work was done under William S. Flynn, Golf Course Architect.  All designs were solely by Flynn.  The contracting work to build according to the precise plans was executed for most, but not all Flynn designs, by Toomey and Flynn, Contracting Engineers.  Flynn owned the WSFGCA entity and was a partner with Toomey in T&FCE.  Eventually William Gordon would be made a junior partner, sometime after Toomey's death in 1933.

[Phil Benedict]

I don't think GD or Golf Magazine would have the gall to rank Augusta so low, regardless of the merits.  

I can't remember the year, and it might have been as many as fifteen or twenty years ago, but Augusta actually fell out of the top ten in the GD rankings.

Tommy,

Surprises me.  I just think that GD is so mainstream and ANGC so powerful that significant degradation of ANGC's ratings is unlikely.  Plus ANGC is such a sacred cow to many (probably most) GD readers, who would question the worth of the ratings if ANGC was ranked too low.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I also think Duke will get a higher seeding than they deserve in the NCAA.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Phil, Maryland will probably get seeded lower than they deserve.  

[Jim Franklin]

Now if only my Canes can beat Sweeney's BC team.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Phil, Maryland will probably get seeded lower than they deserve.  

After losing to a truly awful team on a neutral court, not to mention losing to the same truly awful team a few months' back, MD deserves what they get, IMHO.

Now, Now, MD also beat UNC, NCState and Duke last week.  They are coming together at the right time.

[Kirk Gill]

A bit surprised, I guess, that only two courses in Denver and the suburbs made the top 10 in Colorado. Nice to see Riverdale Dunes make it. Could Murphy Creek, say, give any of the other 8 a run?

I've heard more about the Norman course at Red Sky than I have the Fazio, but the latter takes the cake at number one on the Colorado list. I'd be interested in any information on that one.

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps the lower rating of ANGC could be partially attributed to the "backlash" its been taking by the legends of the game in Arnie, Jack, Gary, etc.  As objective as we would like the raters to be, they likely have politics on their end as well.

Futhermore with all of the planting of the trees and the lengthening of the holes, aren't those both items that most would disagree with on this site?

If it falls from 3 to 10, isn't GW just another voice that they don't approve of all the recent changes at ANGC just like many on this site have voiced?

So all of these things added up, doesn't the lower rating make sense if the wrong decisions/directions are being taken at ANGC?

[Mike_Cirba]

MPCirba -
Muni worthy???
Another muni generalization...can someone explian to me all of the muni rules so I run my course properly?
Thanks.

Eric,

My humblest apologies.  I'm a public course and muni golfer myself and I'm willing to bet that I've played more munis than anyone this side of Matt Ward.

I've played all the Philly ones, all but one of the NYC ones, all of the Baltimore, all of the San Antonio, all but two of the Salt Lake City, all but two in New Orleans, and so on.

So, no offense intended.

Instead, what I should have said is that the tree work on 11 looks horribly amateurish and totally out of character, although they're planting so many of them that I think pretty soon they'll be in character, sadly.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Cuscowilla took a good hit, along with Lakota and Butler National. I do not agree with The Dunes Club being even in the top 30. They should be excluded because they are a 9 hole golf course. They shouldn't be there because they do not have the same criteria as the other 99 courses.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[David Stamm]

Flynn should get design credit for Kittansett Club, it is his design.  Though it wouldn't surprise me if Hood had some minor design contribution.  Flynn should be given co-design credit at Merion.  

I was wondering when you were going to say something about that omission in regards to Kittansett, Wayne. And I agree, Flynn should be mentioned alongside Wilson in regards to Merion. Which brings up another question that I'm going to start a thread on. Why is it a course will be given credit to one architect only if that architect was coming in to redo an existing course. When does the previous architect no longer deserve credit?

[Kalen Braley]

Cuscowilla took a good hit, along with Lakota and Butler National. I do not agree with The Dunes Club being even in the top 30. They should be excluded because they are a 9 hole golf course. They shouldn't be there because they do not have the same criteria as the other 99 courses.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Uh oh..watch out on that post.  Mr. Pioppi might have something to say about that.

In all seriousness though, I don't see why 9 holers need be excluded.  I would much rather play a good 9 hole course twice than play a mediocre 18 hole course once.  And its my understanding that the Dunes Club is an exceptionally good course, so that rules out most other 18 holers.

[wsmorrison]

That's an awfully good golf course, David.  Had to make sure the attributions were correct.  Flynn has 13 courses in the top 100, out of a total of 52 original designs (including Merion, though that is arguable).  That makes a pretty good Major League batting average.

[Kalen Braley]

That's an awfully good golf course, David.  Had to make sure the attributions were correct.  Flynn has 13 courses in the top 100, out of a total of 52 original designs.  That makes a pretty good Major League batting average.

hmm??

13/52 is only .250.  Thats just an OK to mediocre baseball batting average.  But I would suspect its a very good batting average for golf course design....unless thats what you meant by "Major Leagues"  

[Doug Sobieski]

Cuscowilla took a good hit, along with Lakota and Butler National. I do not agree with The Dunes Club being even in the top 30. They should be excluded because they are a 9 hole golf course. They shouldn't be there because they do not have the same criteria as the other 99 courses.

Tony:

There is no mention of any number of holes in the criteria raters are given, so it is evaluated on the same criteria.

[Sean_A]

I will stick to Michigan golf.  

I know golf in Michigan is very healthy when a course as good as Sheperd's Hollow  is not ranked in the state category, but Duke is ranked #10 (Brad should have stepped in and over-ruled some of the obvious knucklehead raters at the mag on this one) and Mid-Pines is ranked #4 and Pine Needles is ranked #2 in NC.  On a side note, why is Mid-Pines modern and Duke classic?  

I also find it very gratifying that The Gailes has hung on so long in these rankings.  Perhaps people will begin to see the real value of this course in the future.  

It is a real shame that there is no space in the top 20 for a course of Belvedere's quality.  Its old-time golf, but good none-the-less.  

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

Kalen,

Exactly.  Top 100 certainly is the Major Leagues.  If Ross batted .250, all the top 100 would be Ross

But as an aside, a .250 hitter these days makes a few million a year with a decent glove.

[David Stamm]

That's an awfully good golf course, David.  Had to make sure the attributions were correct.  Flynn has 13 courses in the top 100, out of a total of 52 original designs (including Merion, though that is arguable).  That makes a pretty good Major League batting average.

Wayne I agree. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I expand upon this on a thread I just started.

[David Stamm]

That's an awfully good golf course, David.  Had to make sure the attributions were correct.  Flynn has 13 courses in the top 100, out of a total of 52 original designs.  That makes a pretty good Major League batting average.

hmm??

13/52 is only .250.  Thats just an OK to mediocre baseball batting average.  But I would suspect its a very good batting average for golf course design....unless thats what you meant by "Major Leagues"  

I tell you Kalen, I can think of a few architects that would love to have that resume!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Doug,
  I'm well aware of the criteria. I just think that 9 holers shouldnt be on the list for several reasons.
 1. "The amount of land than is needed is much smaller, therefore can have a better chance of have incredible land." Most 18 courses don't have this option. Take Friar's Head for example-Some people think that the "flat potato farm" area on the south side of the property isn't very good. I personally, like it.  Okay, so if C&C only had the holes in the dunes, how would it stack up? Think of playing #1, 8, 9, 10, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18? Would that not have a good chance of rating better than FH as a whole?
  2. "An architect, superintendent and maintenance crew can be much more detailed when only taking care of 9 holes."  You still need all the equipment and staff, the level of detail can just be that much higher because one only has 9 holes to worry about.
  3. A round of golf is 18 holes. I've never played The Dunes, have had my chances and hope to soon. The photos I've seen make the place look amazing and I'm not trying to take anything away from it, I just don't think that it should be in the same league as the other 199 courses that are rated by Golfweek because it's nine holes. There is a much better chance of having great holes rather than mundane ones.
  While I have no issues with 9 holes courses, they have their place-just not on Top 100 rankings. I kind of view them like excutive courses or par 3 courses....wishing they were more.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Doug Wright]

A bit surprised, I guess, that only two courses in Denver and the suburbs made the top 10 in Colorado. Nice to see Riverdale Dunes make it. Could Murphy Creek, say, give any of the other 8 a run?

I've heard more about the Norman course at Red Sky than I have the Fazio, but the latter takes the cake at number one on the Colorado list. I'd be interested in any information on that one.

Mountain courses and Jim Engh (#2,4 and 7) dominate the Colorado list below, which I agree is too mountain-centric. The Raven at Three Peaks isn't even the best course in the Silverthorne area (Breckenridge GC is) and doesn't deserve a place on this list.  I haven't played the Red Sky courses but from what I have heard I too am surprised at the Fazio Red Sky ranking ahead of the Norman. Last comment: Broadmoor East is a helluva golf course and although it is half Ross/half RTJ it works great from a design standpoint too. It deserves better than a slot behind these pretty newcomers IMO.

Colorado  
1. Red Sky (Fazio), Wolcott (m)  
2. Lakota Canyon, New Castle (m)  
3. Red Sky (Norman), Wolcott (m)  
4. Redlands Mesa, Grand Junction (m)  
5. Haymaker, Steamboat Springs (m)  
6. Raven Golf Club at Three Peaks, Silverthorne (m)*  
7. Fossil Trace, Golden (m)  
8. Broadmoor (East), Colorado Springs (c)  
9. Golf Club at Bear Dance, Larkspur (m)*  
10. Dunes Course at Riverdale, Brighton (m)*

[Kalen Braley]

Wayne,

Yes you are right, crazy stuff that you can hit .250 in the majors and make millions.

David,

Yes you are right a .250 average when it comes to a golf course design is very excellent, just a play on Waynes Words.

[Doug Wright]

The New Mexico list matches up much better. I prefer UNM South to Twin Warriors personally though.

Andy,

I agree the NM list is good. I think Black Mesa's slightly better than Paa-Ko but they're close enough.

A couple other observations re courses I've played recently:

--It didn't take We-Ko-Pa Sagauro long to get noticed in AZ!    I guess people didn't make the short trek over to the new but not as noticed Vista Verde, which is almost as good.
--What gives with Grand National (Lake) from the RTJ Trail (Ala #4)? It's not even the best course on the property (Links is far better IMO).
--Nice to see Minikahda move up (#77 from #84).

[C. Squier]

Doug,
  I'm well aware of the criteria. I just think that 9 holers shouldnt be on the list for several reasons.
 1. "The amount of land than is needed is much smaller, therefore can have a better chance of have incredible land." Most 18 courses don't have this option. Take Friar's Head for example-Some people think that the "flat potato farm" area on the south side of the property isn't very good. I personally, like it.  Okay, so if C&C only had the holes in the dunes, how would it stack up? Think of playing #1, 8, 9, 10, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18? Would that not have a good chance of rating better than FH as a whole?
  2. "An architect, superintendent and maintenance crew can be much more detailed when only taking care of 9 holes."  You still need all the equipment and staff, the level of detail can just be that much higher because one only has 9 holes to worry about.
  3. A round of golf is 18 holes. I've never played The Dunes, have had my chances and hope to soon. The photos I've seen make the place look amazing and I'm not trying to take anything away from it, I just don't think that it should be in the same league as the other 199 courses that are rated by Golfweek because it's nine holes. There is a much better chance of having great holes rather than mundane ones.
  While I have no issues with 9 holes courses, they have their place-just not on Top 100 rankings. I kind of view them like excutive courses or par 3 courses....wishing they were more.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

I think if you get the opportunity to play there, you may change your mind.  The acreage constraint argument has a few holes in it, IMO (which counts for little, I admit).  Take full 18 hole layouts for example:  Some owners have deeper pockets, they can buy more "prime" land.  Some courses are in resort areas, where architects much develop many more than 18 holes which can handcuff their work.  Or design around a housing development.  And on and on.  Every course has its land issues, many problems being much worse than simply having enough RE to put 9 or 18 holes on it.    

Take Wolf Run for example.  TINY piece of property, leap-frogged 5 spots to 15, which is pretty remarkable.  Compared to Sand Hills, which if I interpret correctly, was a HUGE property where hundreds of holes *could* have designed.  Point being, architects play the hand they're dealt and can create wonderful courses in a space no bigger than your backyard or what seems like the entire face of the moon.  

The Dunes is great fun, take the non-golf variables out of the equation if you get the chance to play there.  Plenty of tee options (for those who haven't played, the tee blocks are where you put your peg in the ground....tons of options) that will certainly hold your attention for 18+ holes.  

Clint

PS - Had to get my homer plug in for Wolf Run.  I would've said something about OFCC, but Mr. Potts mentioned something about holding his jock.  Ryan, I'd love to get a few rounds in this summer and pontificate the merits of both Olympia Fields and Medinah.  I'll buy the first beer in our dingy clubhouse  

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